You are hereForums / Genealogy Research / Moctezuma II descendientes

Moctezuma II descendientes

warning: Creating default object from empty value in /home/lafamilia/nuestrosranchos.com/sites/all/modules/mailhandler/mailhandler.module on line 123.

By AngelicaGarcia - Posted on 12 April 2019

Busco información y contactos con descendientes de Moctuzuma II, en particular con hijos de Leonor Valderrama de Moctezuma, madre de Petronila de Moctezuma.

People question Petronila’s ancestry even though I have repeatedly stated that I have seen proof of her ancestry. I don’t mind people saying that they are not convinced, and won’t be convinced, until they see the document themselves. If I were in their place I too would say “Show me the money”.

And that is why I say I am a very lucky man. I don’t have to rely on what someone else says about seeing proof that Petronila Moctezuma descends from Moctezuma II. Though I can’t find the document that I saw in the Church of Latter Day Saints Library on Santa Monica Blvd in Westwood, I know it exists and that I had it in my hands.

On that day that I took the day off from work to go to the library I was inundated with guilt. I didn’t tell my wife and snuck into the library like a thief. It was the last day before it was to be shut down for “six months” for renovation. The renovation took much, much longer than six months, about two years. I no longer feel guilty for indulging in my hobby and missing work that day because I don’t have to doubt her ancestry!!! And I feel extremely blessed whenever someone doubts my story as it reminds me how lucky I was to see it and have it in my hands.

If It wasn’t me that saw the record I bet I would spend days and weeks instead of hours at the library trying to track it down but I don’t need the record so I spend my time doing other research. The record is in the library though no one can find it.

Rick A. Ricci

Hola prim@s,

You’ve all made great points, and thanks for sharing your thoughts & findings.

I have no doubts that Rick saw that document. We now know it exists, and hopefully, some day, someone will locate it. From Rick’s description, it doesn’t appear to explain the relationship, other than Lope Ruiz de Esparza’s suegra “was a granddaughter of Moctezuma II.” That said, Moctezuma II had numerous wives and concubines, and fathered dozens of children, so the relationship doesn’t necessarily have to be through Diego Arias & Leonor Valderrama (as someone else once pointed out in another NR thread). We all just might be barking up the wrong branch of the tree.

That’s my 2 cents.Thanks!
Manny Diez Hermosillo

I just found a dowry record of another ancestor of mine, Berenguela De Montemayor, that names her father as Martin Alfonso De Montemayor. He does not name Berenguela in his will. Married daughters were often excluded from wills. This female ancestor was a great grandmother of Ruy Diaz De Mendoza. This is the documented line of ancestry of Ruy Diaz De Mendoza that is married to Catalina Salazar. This is another of multiple instances that I have seen where a daughter who is named as receiving a dowry from their father is not named in his will as he has already “ taken care “ of her financially.

The Lope Ruiz De Esparza record that I saw only named his mother-in-law as Moctezuma’s granddaughter, but Guillermo Teresa De Tovar notified me that he had a record in his possession that identified her as part of the Sotelo Moctezuma family. He did not show it to me but he did send me a “verbatim quote”. He said that he would send me a copy but he passed away before was able to pass it on. Other records show Petronila Moctezuma as madrina of children of the Sotelo Valderrama Moctezuma family.

Guillermo Tovar De Teresa showed a little frustration with me when I told him that there was a small mistake in an SHARR article that he coauthored with Mariano Gonzalez Leal and other authors.. The person that belonged in that line of descent should have been a nephew of the person they had in the list of descent from CHARLEMAGNE. This evidence added one more generation to the line. The evidence that I have are court records regarding a real estate dispute. Since He was upset about the conversation, I thought it best to give him a little space until he was ready to listen to my evidence. Unfortunately, he passed away before we had a chance to renew our discussions.

I'm new to the family of Petronila's descendants. A very distant cousin of mine posted a family tree on Ancestry with 33,000 people including my 8th great grandparents, Joseph de Contreras and Cecilia de Renteria. My cousin doesn't list her sources on Ancestry so I have been slowly researching and documenting each person. Today, I made the mistake of picking up Chipman's book which says my 13th GGM Petronila de Sotelo doesn't exist. Ancestry.com and Family Search seem to back him up.

All the records people cite are not of Petronila. I want to prove she existed. Does anyone know where and when her name first appeared?

What do you know about Martin de Gabay Navarro? My first question is, "Is his name Navarro de Gabay or de Gabay de Navarro? (Martin Navarro from Gabay or Martin de Gabay from Navarre?). I'm starting to realize that some of these names are places.

Can someone tell me what PARES and SHARR are? I want more places to dig. I'm stubborn and I just finished an MS in Business - not a related field but I am trained to research and I don't know what to do with my extra time.

If Petronila is not Leonor Valderrama's descendant, I have also lost Charlemagne. He is a direct ancestor of Cristobal Valderrama and Diego de Sotelo.

I'm now regretting not going into that giant LDS temple in my hometown of LA. I was under the incorrect impression that they only had US records and maybe some European records. Do they have anything that is not on FamilySearch or My Heritage?

Any help welcome...

Thanks,

Rachel Juarez Vargas

Rachel,

That is the question we have all been asking … I believe that there is at least one Informaciones Matrimoniales that state that Petronila was Moctezuma’s granddaughter … at least that is what memory serves. The million dollar question is who her parents were. Supposedly, Guillermo Tovar de Teresa had located proof of her parentage and supporting the theory that she was daughter of Diego Sotelo; unfortunately, he died before he was able to publish his findings. However, he did share his information with Mariano González-Leal so there is hope to getting our questions answered.

As fo Martin … I believe he was Martin de Gabay, el Navarro. However, he has been referred to as Martin Navarro as well.

If you look back in the archives on Nuestros Ranchos, you will see that this topic is pretty well covered.

-Angelina-

On Dec 29, 2019, at 1:49 AM, rachkath@me.com wrote:
>
> I'm new to the family of Petronila's descendants. A very distant cousin of
> mine posted a family tree on Ancestry with 33,000 people including my 8th
> great grandparents, Joseph de Contreras and Cecilia de Renteria. My cousin
> doesn't list her sources on Ancestry so I have been slowly researching and
> documenting each person. Today, I made the mistake of picking up Chipman's
> book which says my 13th GGM Petronila de Sotelo doesn't exist. Ancestry.com
> and Family Search seem to back him up. All the records people cite are not of
> Petronila. I want to prove she existed. What do you know about Martin de
> Gabay Navarro? My first question is, "Is his name Navarro de Gabay or de
> Gabay de Navarro? (Martin Navarro from Gabay or Martin de Gabay from
> Navarre?). I'm starting to realize that some of these names are places. Can
> someone tell me what PARES and SHARR are? I want more places to dig. I'm
> stubborn and I just finished an MS in Business - not a related field but I am
> trained to research and I don't know what to do with my extra time. If
> Petronila is not Leonor Valderrama's descendant, I have also lost
> Charlemagne. He is a direct ancestor of Cristobal Valderrama and Diego de
> Sotelo. I'm now regretting not going into that giant LDS temple in my
> hometown of LA. I was under the incorrect impression that they only had US
> records and maybe some European records. Do they have anything that is not on
> FamilySearch or My Heritage? Any help welcome... Thanks, Rachel Juarez Vargas
>

I've spent my morning/early afternoon researching this topic. I read the portion of Margo Tamez' dissertation on Indigenous Women in regard to Petronila. She lists a marriage record but it is not on Family Search. Is there another LDS repository that I am unaware of?

PETRONILA DE MOCTEZUMA, b. Aguascalientes, Abt. 1550. Married to Martin Navarro.
Listed with parents: Francisca GABAY Born Abt. 1577, marriage Abt. 1594 Mexico, DF
LDS marriage film Batch # F868769, Sheet 031, Source 1396289.

If Lope Ruiz de Esparza was correct in calling her "Moctezuma's grand daughter" then she is not the daughter of Leonor and Diego. She cannot be Valderrama's daughter because he died in 1537 and Petronila was born around 1552.

She would have to be a g-grand daughter of Moctezuma. I don’t remember the exact verbage but I do know the there has been confusion with all the Leonor’s in this line. As for other records … the Informaciones Matrimoniales are usually not in the database. Those you have to look at the actual film which is probably available on-line.

You have peaked my interest. I will take a look at the dissertation you mentioned and as well as the LDS record so I can see what you see. Also, I will see if I have links to any documents that mention them.

-Angelina-

> On Dec 29, 2019, at 7:32 PM, rachkath@me.com wrote:
>
> I've spent my morning/early afternoon researching this topic. I read the
> portion of Margo Tamez' dissertation on Indigenous Women in regard to
> Petronila. She lists a marriage record but it is not on Family Search. Is
> there another LDS repository that I am unaware of? PETRONILA DE MOCTEZUMA, b.
> Aguascalientes, Abt. 1550. Married to Martin Navarro. Listed with parents:
> Francisca GABAY Born Abt. 1577, marriage Abt. 1594 Mexico, DF LDS marriage
> film Batch # F868769, Sheet 031, Source 1396289. If Lope Ruiz de Esparza was
> correct in calling her "Moctezuma's grand daughter" then she is not the
> daughter of Leonor and Diego. She cannot be Valderrama's daughter because he
> died in 1537 and Petronila was born around 1552.
>

Here is a link to her dissertation. https://pqdtopen.proquest.com/doc/753899983.html?FMT=AI

Petronila is on Page 583 - Appendix H.

Dear Rachael Juarez Vargas,

I am very curious about your statement:

“Have also lost Charlemagne. He is a direct ancestor of Cristobal Valderrama and Diego de Sotelo.”

How are Cristobal Valderrama and Diego de Sotelo.descendants of CHARLEMAGNE?

Thanks,
Rick A. Ricci

thank you. interesting read.

> On Dec 30, 2019, at 8:23 PM, rachkath@me.com wrote:
>
> Here is a link to her dissertation.
> https://pqdtopen.proquest.com/doc/753899983.html?FMT=AI Petronila is on Page
> 583 - Appendix H.
>

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

Navigation

Who's online

There are currently 0 users and 1 guest online.

Languages