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The Mystery of the Unknown Grandfather/El Misterio del Abuelo Desconocido

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By RafaRamosAg - Posted on 13 March 2017

English:

Twice I have tried to trace back my last name past 1862, but every time I arrive at a dead end. While I have been able to trace my parents’ other last names further back (Ruiz Velasco, Aguirre, Aguirre), Ramos still remains a mystery for me, and thus I turn to you.

The man in question is Inocencio Ramos. Inhabitant of Sayula, Jalisco. I have struggled to find his birth certificate in order to discover who his parents were.

What I know:

His wedding certificate dated August 24, 1885 with Eligia Alvarez (Padilla). It says he is the legitimate son of Maria Merced Ramos and an unknown father. It says he is 22, putting his birth year in 1862-63. It says Eligia (23) is older than him.
Link: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-GL3G-B?i=685&cc=1874591&cat=291444

Eligia’s baptismal certificate has her being born in December 1862. Inocencio must have been born afterwards.
Link: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-G28W-K?i=36&cc=1874591&cat=291444

Here is where it gets tricky. As follows are the birth certificates of Inocencio and Eligia’s children. They are important mainly because I want to know who Inocencio’s father was.

Margarita Ramos (1887). Paternal grandparents: Maria Ramos & unknown.
Link: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-GL9J-95?mode=g&i=221&cc=1874591

Margarita Ramos (1889). Paternal grandparents: Francisco Ramos & Merced Orosco.
Link: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-GL9J-TV?mode=g&i=431&cc=1874591

Ruperto Ramos (1892). Paternal grandparents: Jose Ramos & Merced Orosco.
Link: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-GR9S-7J?mode=g&i=142&cc=1874591

Maria Bartola (1894). Paternal grandparents: Jose Maria Ramos & Maria Merced Orosco.
Link: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-GR99-RQ?mode=g&i=323&cc=1874591

Francisco (1896). Paternal grandparents: Jose Maria Ramos & Maria Merced Orosco
Link: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-GRJK-F?i=175&cc=1874591&cat=291444

Maria Paz (1900). Paternal grandparents: Jose Maria Ramos & Maria Merced Orozoco
Link: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-GRJC-8?mode=g&i=549&cc=1874591&cat=291444

As you can guess I am confused as to who the grandfather could be. Why was Maria’s last name Ramos before the spouse was known? Could it be that Francisco and Jose Maria are brothers? Are one of them the father? I would appreciate any help in this regard. Maybe a search for Inocencio with a different last name to a mother Maria Merced of a different last name around 1863
.
Thank you!

---------------------------------------

Espanol

Dos vezes e tratado de buscar mis antepasados mas alla de 1862, pero cada vez no puedo. Aunque mis otros apellidos an sido mas facil (Ruiz Velasco, Aguirre y Aguirre), me atoro siempre con Ramos, y por eso les pido ayuda.

El hombre que me confunde es Inocencio Ramos, originario y vecino de Sayula, Jalisco. E tratado (sin logro) buscar su registro de bautismo o nacimiento civil.

Lo que se:

Su registro de matrimonio en el 24 de Agosto, 1885 con Eligia Alvarez (Padilla). Dice que es hijo legitimo de Maria Merced Ramos y de padre desconocido. Dice q tiene 22 anos de edad. Eso pondria su nacimiento en 1862-63. Dice que Eligia (23) es mayor que el.
Link: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-GL3G-B?i=685&cc=1874591&cat=291444

EL registro de bautismo de Eligia la tiene nacida el Diciembre 1862. Ynocencio seria nacido despues.
Link: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-G28W-K?i=36&cc=1874591&cat=291444

Aqui es donde se pone complicado. Siguen los registros bautismales de sus hijos. Son importantes por su referncia a los abuelos paternos.

Margarita Ramos (1887). Abuelos paternos: Maria Ramos & unknown.
Link: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-GL9J-95?mode=g&i=221&cc=1874591

Margarita Ramos (1889). Abuelos paternos: Francisco Ramos & Merced Orosco.
Link: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-GL9J-TV?mode=g&i=431&cc=1874591

Ruperto Ramos (1892). Abuelos paternos: Jose Ramos & Merced Orosco.
Link: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-GR9S-7J?mode=g&i=142&cc=1874591

Maria Bartola (1894). Abuelos paternos: Jose Maria Ramos & Maria Merced Orosco.
Link: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-GR99-RQ?mode=g&i=323&cc=1874591

Francisco (1896). Abuelos paternos: Jose Maria Ramos & Maria Merced Orosco
Link: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-GRJK-F?i=175&cc=1874591&cat=291444

Maria Paz (1900). Abuelos paternos: Jose Maria Ramos & Maria Merced Orozoco
Link: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-GRJC-8?mode=g&i=549&cc=1874591&cat=291444

Como pueden observar estoy confundido a quien podria ser el abuelo. Porque la madre se conocia como Ramos en su registro de bodas pero sin saber el padre? Podrian ser Francisoc y Jose Maria hermanos? O uno de ellos el padre? Aprecio cual quier ayuda en esto. Tal vez, una busca por Inocencio bajo otro apellido con una madre Maria Merced de otro apellido naciod en 1863 seria bueno.

Perdonen la ortografia. Muchas gracias!

Rafa,

¿ya consultaste en el Registro Civil?, En Sayula no hay para el nacimiento de Inocencio ~ 1862 pero sí hay para el año de 1885 libro de matrimonios civiles. A lo mejor ahí aparece más información.

Saludos,

BMF

BMF,

Ese registro es diferente a el registro que tengo para la boda el 24 de Agosto de 1885?

Lin: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-GL3G-B?i=685&cc=1874591&cat=291444

Y si es diferente el registro, me puedes dar el link para que pueda buscar en el Registro Civil?

Gracias,

Rafa

Rafa

thats too many different names for it not to be done on purpose. whenever i see that its usually to cover up an ilegitimate baby. i know it says on the marriage hijo legitimo of Maria Merced Ramos but i think the record is trying to cover up something. my guess is that maria Merced Ramos is the origin of the Ramos line. orozco may be another name she uses maybe her mom, but i think inocencio is probly ilegitimate and if his parents weren't married, it's going to be hard to go back any further. i'll look to see if i can find any civil records that will help.

Danny C. Alonso

Danny,

Thanks, I appreciate the help. That is what one of the theories I have considered. I tried to look up what was going on in Jalisco in 1862 and I found the French Conflict was going on, so I wouldn't be surprised if there was any looting and raping going on by both sides. It could also have been just a normal illegitimate child.

His death record which I didn't include has Inocencio listed as "natural" so I figured that he was illegitimate.

In any case, my main interest is the Ramos name. So if you can find Maria Merced Ramos and her Ramos parents that would be great! I tried doing this too but no luck.

Best,

Rafa

yeah i just looked at the death record it says he was 52 and that he died of a liver abscess and was hijo natural de Merced Ramos, so that does mean he's illegitimate. the guy reporting his death is francisco Ramos age 51 so that may be a brother of inocencio. you still may be able to trace Merced Ramos if you can find a birth record for inocencio and maybe francisco, it should at least give Merced Ramos's parents. Do you know if he had any brother or sisters

Danny C. Alonso

Sorry I do not know if he had any brothers or sisters.

I am curious to know who Francisco Ramos is in relation to Inocencio. I did a quick search for Franciscos born in Sayula between 1862 and 1870 and found three, none of which were to a Maria Merced (some in 1868 to Maria Ramos but that would make them too old).

In any case if Maria Merced was indeed a Ramos (for her to be Francisco's mother and thus Francisco be a brother as opposed to a cousin) that would mean Francisco would also be illegitimate and within 1 year of Inocencio which although plausible, I would think with the culture then she would not be likely to do that...but then again who knows?

My next search will be in the 1930 Mexico records that has Ruperto Ramos in it. I will see if he is living with anyone else (aside from children) or if he made the trip to Guadalajara alone.

-----------------------------------------------

Edit:

He made the trip with a Francisco Ramos who was 30 at the time (Ruperto was 38). Ruperto's brother Francisco was supposedly born in 1896, so it cannot be him. I suppose it's a cousin. Again, a search for a Francisco Ramos born in Sayula during 1899-1901 gives me nothing except for a female born in 1899.

Link to 1930 census: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6889-TJG?mode=g&i=90&cc=1307314

Rafa,

I have seen several instances where someone had multiple children all listed as hijos naturales. So, it happens quite a lot.

Danny C. Alonso

Here are some records that may help your research
:
Maria De La Merced Rodrigs. Ramos
Mexico Baptisms
Name Maria De La Merced Rodrigs. Ramos
Gender Female
Christening Date 25 Sep 1830
Christening Place SAYULA,JALISCO,MEXICO
Father's Name Jose Ma. Rodrigs.
Mother's Name Guade. Ramos
Citing this Record
"México bautismos, 1560-1950," database, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NV9W-K2Y : 12 December 2014), Maria De La Merced Rodrigs. Ramos, 25 Sep 1830; citing SAYULA,JALISCO,MEXICO, reference ; FHL microfilm 224,945

Jose Ma. Rodrigs.
mentioned in the record of Jose Ma. Rodrigs. and Ma. Guade. Ramos
Name Jose Ma. Rodrigs.
Spouse's Name Ma. Guade. Ramos
Event Date 19 Dec 1829
Event Place Sayula,Jalisco,Mexico
Citing this Record
"México matrimonios, 1570-1950," database, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JZV7-T4Q : 16 July 2015), Jose Ma. Rodrigs. and Ma. Guade. Ramos, 19 Dec 1829; citing Sayula,Jalisco,Mexico, reference ; FHL microfilm 224,988.

Maria Anta. De Orosco
mentioned in the record of Jph. Maria Ramos and Maria Anta. De Orosco
Name Jph. Maria Ramos
Spouse's Name Maria Anta. De Orosco
Event Date 13 Nov 1768
Event Place Sayula,Jalisco,Mexico
Citing this Record
"México matrimonios, 1570-1950," database, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JZV7-RPJ : 16 July 2015), Jph. Maria Ramos and Maria Anta. De Orosco, 13 Nov 1768; citing Sayula,Jalisco,Mexico, reference ; FHL microfilm 224,984.

Name Brigida Rodriguez Ramos
Gender Female
Christening Date 08 Oct 1833
Christening Place SAYULA,JALISCO,MEXICO
Father's Name Jose Maria Rodriguez
Mother's Name Guadalupe Ramos
Citing this Record
"México bautismos, 1560-1950," database, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NR24-ZYL : 12 December 2014), Jose Maria Rodriguez in entry for Brigida Rodriguez Ramos, 08 Oct 1833; citing SAYULA,JALISCO,MEXICO, reference ; FHL microfilm 224,945.

Good luck,
Rick A. Ricci

Hi Rafa,

I agree with Danny, I've seen numerous cases where a couple were living together for years and had several children without ever having been married. I've also seen cases where a couple married eventually after having lived together and having several illegitimate children. And, I've even seen cases where a couple weren't living together but carried on a long term affair and had 5 children together before ever getting married.

Chris

Hi Rafa,

I took a look at your Maria Merced Ramos. She does appear to be a Ramos and the origin of the Ramos line like Danny stated. She also appears to be an Orozco and appears to have had several children with an unknown man. Like was said before, I've seen this many times, but, I'm never quite sure what the reason is. I found a record for these three children, Ausencia Ramos, Esteban Ramos, and, Espiridion Ramos who are siblings and with near certainty siblings to your Inocencio Ramos. As you can see all three are the natural born (illegitimate) children of Maria Merced Ramos and an unknown man. There are probably several more children that can be found with a little more searching. So, Maria Merced Ramos was having children at least for a period of ten years beginning around 1853. The last record she is listed as Mercedes Ramos, so her baptismal name is probably Maria de las Mercedes if you can find the record. The grandparents are listed as Jose Ramos and Clara Martinez for Ausencia and Jose Ramos and Clara Orozco for Esteban and Espiridion, so that is where the Orozco comes in:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-GPQ5-Y
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-K3SH-DQ
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-KHN3-8

Jose Ramos and Clara Orozco married in Sayula in 1824:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-KCSZ-V

Jose Ramos is the son of Joseph Atenogenes Ramos and Maria Patricia, both who would have been born around 1760 or earlier.

Clara Orozco is the daughter of Antonio Orozco and Matiana Martinez, both who look like they were born around 1785 or earlier.

Good luck in your search.

Chris

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