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Juan Colunga and Isabel Mendez

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By dcalonso - Posted on 30 January 2017

Hello Nuestros Ranchos Forum,

Im looking for the parents of my ancestors Juan Colunga an Isabel Mendez
probly from Valle de San Francisco, San Luis Potosí where their children
married. i think they were born around 1680 or maybe a little earlier. im
hoping someone else in the group descends from them or has information on
them. thank you

Danny C. Alonso

Daniel,

This is great stuff. i've been looking for the marriage of Benito martin de
la Orta but haven't found it. do you know if they married in San Luis
Potosi or do you happen to have a link to their marriage.

Danny C. Alonso

On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 10:57 PM, wrote:

> Da. Juana de Adriansen was baptized on 31 Dec 1609 in the Cathedral of
> México
> https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-65BF-K6?i=628&w
> c=3PX8-168%3A122580201%2C125502002&cc=1615259
> She was the daughter--as her marriage record to D. Juan Miguel Calderón
> states--of D. Jorge de Morales and Da. Juana de Adriansen. I have also
> begun
> to analyze how the Adriansen name was passed down. We have: I. Da. Juana de
> Adriansen (daughter) of II. Da. Juana de Adriansen (she is either the
> daughter of D. Pedro de Adriansen y Xureda, Comerciante in the Cerro de S.
> Pedro or a sister of this D. Pedro III. Da. Isabel de Adriansen, daughter
> of
> D. Cornelio y Da. Juana, sister to D. Pedro, and spouse of D. François de
> Rutiaga Mester, owner of the Hacienda de los Bledos and silver mongul of
> San
> Luis Potosí, he died between 30 May 1627 and 19 Mar 1633, possibly in Villa
> de Reyes, SLP. Both of their daughters (IV and V) used Adriansen: IV. Da.
> Antonia de Adriansen spouse of D. Pedro Pérez de Sardaneta y Legaspi,
> another silver mongul in SLP, miner by profession and owner of the Palace
> of
> Sardaneta in Arenaza, Vizcaya. Da. Antonia used Adriansen in the baptismal
> record of their daughter Da. Francisca on 16 Nov 1644 in Pozos, SLP. D.
> Pedro
> and Da. Antonia are direct ancestors of the House of the Marquis of San
> Juan
> de Rayas. It is presumed (opinion) that three silver estates of Sardaneta,
> Adriansen and Rutiaga entered the house of Sardaneta thus favoring the King
> to grant the Marquisate of San Juan de Rayas to the family for financing
> certain royal projects, construction of temples, etc and the fact the satus
> and influence of the family kept expanding rapidly. V. Da. María de
> Adriansen baptized 18 Mar 1619 (a link to her record precedes a couple of
> posts) spouse of D. Benito Martín de la Orta, Comerciante (I believe he was
> a penínsular, not proven yet) Da. María used Adriansen in the baptism
> record of their son D. José Martín de la Orta y Rutiaga on 16 Nov 1644 in
> Pozos, SLP. This line married into the Colunga Cortés family and are
> ancestors of Danny Alonso here in the group. I descend from Danny's
> ancestor
> (D. Francisco de Colunga Cortés y Méndez Páez's brother) D. José de
> Colunga Cortés. Daniel Méndez de Torres y Camino
>
>

On a the post at the bottom of this page I had written a response to quotes attributed to Esteban Mira Caballos. The problem is that I should have waited until I had read Esteban Mira Caballos's book addressing the issues that are brought up by his quotes. I should have waited patiently until I had his written words in front of me instead of relying on someone else quoting him as he does address some of the issues that I bring up. He was also inaccurately quoted at times.

Esteban Mira Caballos Ones mentions one of the Castro family branches that I have studied. He doesn't address them as a branch but as a group of individuals surnamed Casto. I had already put many of the names that he mentions into their place in a family tree. This family branch is the one found to be in the service of the Kings as bookkeepers, escribanos, and physicians. He had not connected these individuals.

I don't know if Esteban Mira Caballos is correct regarding Fernan Cortez's paternal ancestry but he does put up a convincing argument. There Is still the issue of Esteban Mira Caballos denying the very existence of the paternal grandmother in the traditional lineage when we know that the woman did exist and that she is Fernan Cortez's great aunt in the family tree that he claims. I believe that this is the biggest chink in the armor of his argument. It is not the only chink in the armor. His conclusion of where the Monroy comes from is a reach. I see where he gets the descent from Lope Cortez but Maria Cortez de la Cueva also descends from him and instead of erasing her from the family tree, his comments helped find her paternal ancestry by opening up the case on Fernando Cortez's ancestry.

Now that I have collected more pieces to the puzzle, and read Esteban Mira Caballos's book, I can put together a family tree bringing together a few branches of the Cortex family showing how many of the individuals surnamed Cortez that Esteban Mira Caballos mentions when speaking about many of the Cortezs that he found in his research.

Though I can put together a family tree based on his assertions and my pieces to the puzzle that extends to the 1200's, I am not totally convinced that we should throw out the traditional paternal ancestry of Fernan Cortez. I need to do more research to see if I share his same conclusions. In the meantime, I will have both family trees in my records.

Rick A. Ricci

Pppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppprevious. Posttttttttttttttttttt

XxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxXxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Previous post based on someone else quoting Esteban Mira Caballos.

Vvvvvv vv vv v v v

Martin Cortez y Monroy's parents?
Submitted by R.A.Ricci on Mon, 2017-02-13 09:09.
Dear Danny,

I have read what others have written quoting him and not his book. I don't know if the quotes are accurate so I should wait to read Esteban Mira Caballos's book first before commenting. I should wait, but I will go on a limb and respond as if these quotes are accurate. The story showing the descent from Gilgo Cortesio to Lope Cortez is weak as Lope could not have been his son as there are many centuries between them and there are many missing generations. Lope is a strong beginning point for many people working on their Cortez genealogy but the problem is that there are most likely more than one Lope as there are different trees constructed from Lope. The tree that he uses does not include a "son" of Lope that i actually found information on . This son has many children and descendants that actually are in the service of the Kings of Castilla after King Ferdinand and Queen Isabel pass away. These Cortezs were receiving benefits from the Kings when Cortez was being ignored in his last days. Besides the Cortez Monroy branch you also have a Cortez del Rey Branch that also claims descendancy from Lope Cortez

Esteban Mira Caballos Is quoted as writing that the supposed father Fernando Monroy only had one son named Rodrigo Monroy so he couldn't be the father of Martin Cortez y Monroy, but his argument is off here as Rodrigo/(Ruy) Monroy is the supposed father Of Martin Cortez Monroy. Why is he arguing that Fernando Monroy is not the father? Why? Why isn't he arguing that Rodrigo Monroy isn't the father.

Esteban Mira Caballos Is also quoted as writing that Maria Cortez de la Cueva and her parents did not exist and that someone made them up. They did exist and there is evidence that they exist so why is he attacking their existence?i

In the Fernando Cortez ancestry that I learned as a teenager the paternal grandparents weren't married. So if the given ancestry all ready addresses the point that Martin Cortez's parents aren't married when he is born then why argue that he couldn't be of this family as there is no record of a marriage? So I ask again, why is Esteban Mira Caballos quoted saying this is proof that Martin comes from a different family.

Esteban Mira Caballos Is quoted as saying that Maria Cortez de la Cueva did not exist but the person quoting him has her listed in the family tree as a great aunt of Martin Cortez.

The Cortez /Cortesio family is supposedly Italian that immigrated to what was the border at the Pyrenhees but this immigration happened many centuries before we find people putting together a family tree on the Cortez's. The story on this surname is so long that it predates the way surnames were used at the base of the Pyrenees. The surnames used here were usually geographical names.

Esteban Mira Caballos Does not address the issue that most family members are involved in careers that involve much education and that a high percentage of them doctors, bookkeepers, and escribanos which are jobs often taken by Jews. Many family trees were intentionally changed to hide the fact that there was a strong Jewish lineage in their family tree,

Esteban Mira Caballos Does an excellent job in explaining Fernan Cortez's Pizarro ancestry through his maternal side, the Pizarro/Hinojosos. Esteban Mira Caballos Explains how his supposed second cousin Pizarro was actually his second cousin once removed as it was his mother that is the second cousin to Conquistador Pizarro. He does not show it, but I have the ancestry of this line going back to King Henry Ii and Queen Eleonore of England.

Esteban Mira Caballos May have discoverered the correct lineage on Fernan Cortez but all the red flags that I see flying back and forth are making me reserve judgement until I see the actual evidence.

I believe that Esteban Mira Caballos may be on the right track but I had originally believed Guillermo Tovar de Teresa when he came up with a different Romo Rangel ancestry. Guillermo Tovar de Teresa said he had proof of his assertions but he never presented them and I am still waiting for someone to come up with proof of the real Romo Rangel tree. I believe that Esteban Mira Caballos's clarification of The Pizzaro tree was equally as important as straightening out Fernan Cortez's paternal line. Besides the Pizarro cleanup, I feel that finding out that he always signed his first name with an F was interesting.

I have also learned a lot about the Cortez family tree but feel that although I have collected many pieces, I have not Collected enough information yet to get a clear picture of how the different branches are related. I do have a few branches mapped out.

Rick A. Ricci

Mr. Ricci,

thank you for providing this information and clearing up any confusion about Esteban Mira Caballos work. i have cited him as a reference and relied on his work even though it's a secondary source it seemed very well researched. so, im glad that you think he makes a good argument.

Danny C. Alonso

Dear Danny,

I am sorry that I said "good argument." There is and should be some confusion as there are "chinks in the armor". I can't find any information on Nuno Cortez señor de Molina. And Maria Cortez de Cueva did exist and was part of the family tree that he is saying that Fernan Cortez is from. There is a strong possibility that the line he was attempting to throw shade at he actually built up. I wish that I could see "all the pieces" that he has in front of him and I wish he had the pieces that I have in front of me so he could change part of his arguement. I should argue the strengths of the other argument so that you can see that both trees should be cited. I should explain what parts we know for sure, and what parts come from secondary sources.

We know who Lope Cortez descends from and he shares some of the same ancestors as Rodrigo Fernandez Monroy. We also have information on some of the Cortez branches that spread out and are considerered his cousins (not first). I have created three branches of these cousins as each branch descends from Lope. But one of the branches that has primary sources and is very solid is not listed as a son of Lope by "people in Esteban Mira Caballos's camp."

There are too many red flags to just accept it as if he had primary sources. I believe that instead of dismantling the Fernandez/Cortez de la Cueva argument, he has added fuel to the fire by providing an opposing argument that it is Rodrigo Fernandez Monroy's father who had an outside of marriage relationship with Maria Cortez Cueva, and that there is an added generation that he has provided which explains all the added pieces.

We have many pieces, both Esteban Mira Caballos and I, but I think he is missing some of my pieces, and I am missing some of his pieces. We need to bring out all the pieces to light to bring about the "good argument." We need to clean up the generations between Lope Cortez and Martin Cortez.

Rick A. Ricci

I don't know if you had time to review the book "Historia de la Casa (different royals houses and their trees are included) by Don Luis de Salazar y Castro Ano M.DC.XCVI.
M=1000, DC=600, XC=90, and VI=6 (1696) the link is in the middle of this conversation with Danny. It is 700+ pages, I believe I saw Casa de Molina in this book.

Danny, on p179 is the small and dramatic story of Dona Margarita, Senora de Ledesma. The translation of part of the story can be found in NuestrosRanchos. Later I read a little more of her calamities as a beautiful widow with great property and how she was stolen by a guy named Nunez, who had plans to kill her but her beauty mesmerized him and instead said they could run away together through a back stairway before the others came. An old fellow challenged him to a duel to try and save her so he Nuno put her down and killed the anciano, when he tried to pick her up again, she grabbed his dagger. he was gravely wounded.

The author states that in another book they go more into the story of Infante D. Sancho. So I'll look and see if it available on google.

Hi Simona,

i tried to read it but my Spanish is still not that good. and the writing
is difficult for me to read. its written in a strange writing. but, i
really was just tryin to see what the connection is between them and our
inez de Paz.

Danny C. Alonso

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 9:39 AM, wrote:

> I don't know if you had time to review the book "Historia de la Casa
> (different royals houses and their trees are included) by Don Luis de
> Salazar
> y Castro Ano M.DC.XCVI. M=1000, DC=600, XC=90, and VI=6 (1696) the link is
> in
> the middle of this conversation with Danny. It is 700+ pages, I believe I
> saw
> Casa de Molina in this book. Danny, on p179 is the small and dramatic story
> of Dona Margarita, Senora de Ledesma. The translation of part of the story
> can be found in NuestrosRanchos. Later I read a little more of her
> calamities
> as a beautiful widow with great property and how she was stolen by a guy
> named Nunez, who had plans to kill her but her beauty mesmerized him and
> instead said they could run away together through a back stairway before
> the
> others came. An old fellow challenged him to a duel to try and save her so
> he
> Nuno put her down and killed the anciano, when he tried to pick her up
> again,
> she grabbed his dagger. he was gravely wounded. The author states that in
> another book they go more into the story of Infante D. Sancho. So I'll look
> and see if it available on google.
>

Both stories (shorten, my Spanish not the great as well) have been translated and Dona Juana the mother of Don Pedro Perez child of Infante Don Sancho del Castilla (de la Paz)

In another post, the story of Dona Juana and in the Files of Nuestro Ranchos is Margaritas.

Thank you Simona for translating them. I will read them now.

Danny C. Alonso

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 10:24 AM wrote:

> Both stories (shorten, my Spanish not the great as well) have been
> translated
> and Dona Juana the mother of Don Pedro Perez child of Infante Don Sancho
> del
> Castilla (de la Paz) In another post, the story of Dona Juana and in the
> Files of Nuestro Ranchos is Margaritas.
>

Dear Danny,

It is important to check secondary sources before citing them as facts. Just because someone wrote something in a book stating that they have found the true line does not make it true. Many times It is hard to check other people's work but a good starting point is to check the dates. The proposed tree may sound true but just a check of the dates that you can find on some of the people in the tree will show that the tree is an impossibility. What sounds like a "good argument" will crumble when the birth dates make the tree impossible. There are exceptions like the Ruiz de Esparza tree which seemed impossible, but was only highly improbable, yet true, as I was able to use primary sources to prove that the majority of our concerned line between 1300's and the 1500's were born when their father was at a much older than average age.

Rick A. Ricci

Hola Danny:

Fui a la biblioteca a revisar los Partidos y Padrones del Obispado de Michoacán, sobre San Luis Potosí pero no encontré a nadie de la familia Colunga hacia 1680.

Pero en la sección de Notarías de ésta misma página existen antecedentes de la venta de la hacienda de Juan de Colunga, difunto, que se remató en el Puesto de San Diego, Valle de Huejucar, Jurisdicción de Juchipila hacia 1656.

Saludos

Marcelina

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