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Nicolas Garcia Reyes

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By arturdeleon - Posted on 15 June 2016

I am having a difficult time trying to locate Nicolas Garcia Reyes baptism, I have his matrimonio at Asuncion de Maria Aguascalientes, Aguascalientes, 1846-1853, image 667 of 773= In this image it states that he was from el barrio Salitre Ags, I also know according to the Book written by my great grandcousin Antonio de La Torre Garcia, titled Cuatro Valores Aguascalientenses, where he write about my greatgrandfather Jose Angel Garcia Macias his brother Rafael and Angel's son Antonio. In this book, the year birth of Nicolas is 1830, his father's first name Zacrias.But according to the matrimonio, his father's name is Don Camilo Garcia and his mother Brigida Reyes, his bride is Pantaleona Macias. On the baptism for Maria Patricia Garcia, Bautismos 1841-1842, Asuncion de Maria Image 351 of 481, the parents are Camilo Garcia and Brigida Reyes, Abuelos paternos Jose maria Garcia y Vicenta Bocanegra, Maternos: Antonio Reyes y Josefa Losando. In Bautismos de castas ; 1807-1812 Images 272 and 273 of 573, July 9, 1809, bautismo de Jose Camilo Garcia Yndio hijo legitimo de Jose Maria y de Vicenta Aguilar, Paternos; Jose Bartolo Garcia y Maria Margarita Salas, Maternos; Jose Dionicio Aguilar Y Maria Eucevia Vocanegra. All this information makes it difficult to confirm without the documentation. Is there some Garcia Bocanegra (Vocanegra)Reyes or Losando that can provide light at the end of this tunnel. Gracias primos.

Hi Arturo,

I actually am not taking a position on where the Robalcava name comes from, I'm just reading the record. If it comes from her mother, than one of the records is wrong, but, the Brigida's are definitely the same. The problem is the multiple names. I actually am not sure that all the errors are from the various records, some may come from the family itself. There's too many different names for them to all be mistakes of the priest or the scribe. I'm thinking something else may be going on here. Possibly, Brigida's parentage was not fully known, or came to light at a later date, or some other scenario. Also, now I'm not sure any of these names are correct. It's unusual not to find any records for names in Aguascalientes, which is pretty well indexed. There doesn't appear to be an Antonio Reyes and Josefa Lozano in this time frame or an Ygnacio Robalcava and Josefa Reyes either. Here's a similarly named couple to the Brigida Robalcava record, it's for a Eustaquio Robalcava and Josefa Reyes, both Indios. Eustaquio and Ygnacio, could be confused by the scribe. This couple fits the time frame, perhaps you should look at them:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6MCS-B73

Chris

Here is a summary of the data we have collected:

Nicolas Garcia is the son of Jose Camilo Garcia (b.1810) and Brigida Reyes (Ruvalcaba) (b.1801) (m.28 Jul 1835)

Jose Camilo Garcia Aguilera is the son of Jose Maria Garcia and Maria Vicenta Aguilar Vocanegra

Maria Vicenta Aguilar Vocanegra is the daughter of Jose Dionicio (Leonicio) Aguilar and Eusebia Vocanegra .

Jose Maria Garcia is the son of Antonio Garcia and Eusebia Martinez according to a baptismal record for Jose Andres Garcia (c. 7/Feb/1816) Aguascalientes

according to another document Jose Maria Garcia is the son of
Jose Bartolo Garcia (Different from your Antonio Garcia above)y Maria Margarita Salas (also different from your Eusebia Martinez above)

Brigida Reyes (aka Brigida Ruvalvaba) (b.1801) is the daughter Jose Antonio Reyes and Josefa Gonzalez-Ruvalcaba Lozano according to a baptismal record. In her marriage record she is the daughter of Ygnacio Ruvalcaba and Josefa Reyes

Jose Antonio Reyes is married to Maria Josefa Gonzalez -Ruvalcaba y Lozano (m.30/Aug/1794) Aguascalientes these may be the parents of Brigida Reyes (Ruvalcaba)

Since we have two different primary sources identifying different paternal grandparents, I am guessing that one couple is the biological parents of Jose Maria Garcia and the second set may have been his adoptive parents. I am theorizing that his parents passed away and he was taken in by family. Just a theory

Hi R.A. Ricci, well if this is true, it puts a different spin on things. My certificate of Camilo Garcia, indicates that he is YNDIO, the question is, Jose Andres and Camilo Garcia are both hijos legitimos of Jose Maria Garcia and Vicenta
Aguilar. However on his Bautismo, dated July 19, 1809, Asuncion de Maria Aguascalientes, Bautismos de castas 1807-1812, Image 272 and 273, lists his parents as:

Father: Jose Maria Garcia
Mother: Maria Vicenta Aguilar
Abuelos Paternos: Jose Bartolo Garcia y Maria Margarita Salas
Abuelos Maternos: Jose Dionicio Aguilar y Maria Eucevia Vocanegra

According to your research: Parents of Jose Maria Garcia are:
Antonio Garcia and Eusebia Martinez, info extracted from Bautismo of Jose Andres Garcia, Feb. 7, 1816 Image 483 of 502 Espanol.

The problems are, Camilo is caste as Yndio.
Jose Andres as Espanol
Camilo's Abuelos are Jose Bartolo Garcia y Maria Margarita Salas
as indicated in his bautismo July 19, 1809. This period seems to indicate that the parents of Jose Maria Garcia were Jose bartolo Garcia and Maria Margarita Salas.

Six years after the birth of Camilo Garcia a brother is born, named Jose Andres Garcia.Problems: Racial casting, Espanol and different set of Abuelos Paternos;
Antonio Garcia and Eusebia Martinez.

The question is was Camilo an Yndio and if so was Jose Maria or Maria Vicenta Aguilar Yndio/Yndia or both?

If Jose Maria Garcia was orphaned and his relative Antonio Garcia and Eucebia both espanoles or was there an Yndio/Yndia or mestizo/mestiza among this set of parents.

What makes this very interesting, is that the Garcia clan comes from a long line of classical musicians, starting with Nicolas Garcia and two of his sons well known filamornicos, Jose Angel Garcia Macias (mi maria) and Rafael Garcia Macias and his grandsons Ricardo Garcia Mendoza and Antonio Garcia Mendoza, this family was well respected in Aguascalientes.

So now the questions are; was Camilo Yndio, is my certificate incorrect, is Jose Bartolo Garcia and Maria Margarita Salas an erroneous entries.

Gracias, Arturo

Arturo, Rick,

This is the first time I've come across a family that has used this many different names. It makes it very difficult to track down. Here's more names for you. Camilo Garcia is the son of Jose Maria Salas and Vicenta Aguilar. Jose Maria Salas and Vicenta Aguilar were married on 1 October 1808. Jose Maria Salas is the natural born son of Margarita Salas. Vicenta Aguilar is the daughter of Dionicio Aguilar and Eusebia Lopez, another new apellido.

Marriage of Jose Maria Salas and Vicenta Aguilar:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6P83-8V6

Chris

I would agree, however, I have documents through bautismos and matrimonios that discount this theory. Jose Maria was a very common first and middle name during those periods. My ancestry documented history begins with my bisabuelos paternos, Jose Angel Garcia Macias and Francisca Natalia Mendoza Tiscareno. I took a trip to Aguascalientes, and interviewed my cousin x2, Maria de Los Dolores Garcia Ruiz de La Pena 90x yrs of age daughter of my great uncle Ricardo Garcia Mendoza, also collected the book Cuatro Valores Aguascalentenses, author by Jose Antonio de La Torre Garcia, written in honor of his grandfather Jose Angel Garcia Macias,uncle Rafael Garcia Macias and Primos Ricardo Garcia Mendoza and Antonio Garcia Mendoza. During this trip I was able to gathered names and dates of birth of Jose Angel and Francisca Natalia sons and daughters. Through this research the names of abuelos paternos always mentioned Nicolas Garcia Reyes and Pantaleona Macias, and for children of Nicolas and Pantaleona the names of Abuelos Paternos have been Jose Camilo Garcia and Brigida Reyes and for the children of Camilo Garcia and Brigida Reyes the Abuelos Paternos: Jose Maria Garcia and Vicenta Bocanegra, Maternos Antonio Reyes and Josefa Bocanegra

The sequence of abuelos takes a drastic turn with the bautismo of Jose Camilo, July 19, 1809
Parents:Jose Maria Garcia y Maria Vicenta Aguilar aka Bocanegra (see above)
Abuelos Paternos:Jose Bartolo Garcia and Maria Margarita Salas
Abuelos Maternos: Dionicio Aguilar and Maria Eucevia Vocanegra (see above)

This as far as my documented history on the Garcia clan took me. Unfortunate without a bautismo of Nicolas Garcia Reyes , doubts exist.

Bautismo de Jose Angel Garcia Macias; bautismos 1853-1855, IMAGE 123 of 602

hijo legitimo de Nicolas Garcia y Pantaleona Macias
Abuelos Paternos: Camilo Garcia and Brigida Reyes
Abuelos Maternos: N. Maria Ysabel Macias, have a certificate that for Brigida Reyes as hija Natural de Baqcilio Lopez
Is there an answer?

Hi Arturo,

Jose Maria is a very common name in that era. But, Jose Maria with the exact same named mother, (Margarita Salas) and the exact same named wife, (Vicenta Aguilar), who also happens to have the exact same named father, (Dionicio Aguilar) and a mother with the exact same given name, (Eusebia), is far less common. This doesn't mean Bartolo Garcia isn't his father, it just means he's a natural born child. I also don't believe this is the last hijo natural. This would also explain why there's no marriages for some of these couples, even though this is one of the best indexed areas. I would also not rely too heavily on everything that was told by family members, until it's backed up with records. I was told various things by family members, much of which turned out inaccurate, or, in some cases, completely wrong, once the actual records were found. I think there's little doubt that this is the correct Jose Maria Garcia(Salas).

Chris

From: "winonade14@sbcglobal.net"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.com
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2016 11:58 AM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jose Andres Garcia

I would agree, however, I have documents through bautismos and matrimonios
that discount this theory. Jose Maria was a very common first and middle name
during those periods. My ancestry documented history begins with my
bisabuelos paternos, Jose Angel Garcia Macias and Francisca Natalia Mendoza
Tiscareno. I took a trip to Aguascalientes, and interviewed my cousin x2,
Maria de Los Dolores Garcia Ruiz de La Pena 90x yrs of age daughter of my
great uncle Ricardo Garcia Mendoza, also collected the book Cuatro Valores
Aguascalentenses, author by Jose Antonio de La Torre Garcia, written in honor
of his grandfather Jose Angel Garcia Macias,uncle Rafael Garcia Macias and
Primos Ricardo Garcia Mendoza and Antonio Garcia Mendoza. During this trip I
was able to gathered names and dates of birth of Jose Angel and Francisca
Natalia sons and daughters. Through this research the names of abuelos
paternos always mentioned Nicolas Garcia Reyes and Pantaleona Macias, and for
children of Nicolas and Pantaleona the names of Abuelos Paternos have been
Jose Camilo Garcia and Brigida Reyes and for the children of Camilo Garcia
and Brigida Reyes the Abuelos Paternos: Jose Maria Garcia and Vicenta
Bocanegra, Maternos Antonio Reyes and Josefa Bocanegra The sequence of
abuelos takes a drastic turn with the bautismo of Jose Camilo, July 19, 1809
Parents:Jose Maria Garcia y Maria Vicenta Aguilar aka Bocanegra (see above)
Abuelos Paternos:Jose Bartolo Garcia and Maria Margarita Salas Abuelos
Maternos: Dionicio Aguilar and Maria Eucevia Vocanegra (see above) This as
far as my documented history on the Garcia clan took me. Unfortunate without
a bautismo of Nicolas Garcia Reyes , doubts exist. Bautismo de Jose Angel
Garcia Macias; bautismos 1853-1855, IMAGE 123 of 602 hijo legitimo de Nicolas
Garcia y Pantaleona Macias Abuelos Paternos: Camilo Garcia and Brigida Reyes
Abuelos Maternos: N. Maria Ysabel Macias, have a certificate that for Brigida
Reyes as hija Natural de Baqcilio Lopez Is there an answer?

Hi Chris, hijos/hijas naturales was very common based on my encounter of certificates I came across,(not in the Garcia Clan)I have not found one certificate suggesting that. I need to correct one statement, Jose Angel Garcia Macias and Francisca Natalia Mendoza Tiscareno are my maternal bisabuelos. I am the son of Francisca Garcia Yanez and Fernando de Leon Medina, my grandparents
were Jose Jesus Garcia Mendoza and Emilia (Edmigda) Yanez Macias, Emilia was the Natural daughter of Alejandro Yanez of Pinos Zacatecas and Teresa Macias Guardado Villa Garcia Zacatecas. My interview with Maria de Los Dolores Garcia Ruiz de La Pena, was confirming what I already had from my grandfather sons and daughters, here in Texas. She did not suggest nor influence me in anyway as to the family in Aguascalientes, social and educational status. All that information is recorded in their defunciones . In addition streets bearing their names in Aguascalientes because of their musical contributions to the State and Mexico as a whole, also recognition for some of the daughters of Jose Angel Garcia Macias who distinguished themselves as educators whose names appear on streets named after them. All that said, I would love to find the certificate of Bautismo for Nicolas Garcia Reyes, because this certificate would answer part of my questions. If you have located Nicolas bautismo, I would appreciate the period and Image number. I know he was born in April 1830, but had no success locating that certificate. Gracias

Arturo de Leon-Garcia

Hi Arturo,

No one is suggesting anything about hijos naturales and the Garcia's. I have dozens of hijos naturales in my family. I'm suggesting that that's one possible explanation for the inconsistencies in records and multiple apellidos. I'm also not suggesting that you disregard your families oral and written history, I'm just suggesting that it needs to be confirmed with actual records, and, if those records show contradictory evidence, than you may need to disregard portions of what you may have heard. All of us in the forum are trying to assist you. I believe both records that I provided are your correct ancestors. I believe if your review them thoroughly you will come to the same conclusion.

Chris

Hello everyone,

I agree with Chris in that this one is a big puzzle with many pieces but we are having trouble putting them together because of multiple use of names and information about what seems to be the same.people. The issue about different races is really not an issue. I have seen the same person referred to as three or four different racial classifications. Sometimes they would look at the color of the skin of the child and come up with the classification. I have seen the same person classified as mestizo, tresalvo, and espanol; each classification in a different document. The issue here is the numerous names for what seem to be the same people.

I do not have an answer for this dilemma. What I do know is that Chris has done excellent work when helping me out with my Perez-Gallo family line. I have a lot of respect for Chris's work and conjectures.

Thanks,
Rick A. Ricci

I am going to review this entire conversation and see where I can comfortably feel the connection, based on verifiable documents. The problem with me, is that I have a one chance to get it right, (getting old). I want whoever picks the baton, that his lane be clear. Again thank you for all your hard work.

Arturo de Leon-Garcia

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