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Deciphering marriage certificate

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By dgmiv - Posted on 27 March 2016

I need some help in figuring out the bride's mother's name on the marriage certificate for Agustin Ursua and Bernardina Gutierres at https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-G5BH-B?mode=g&i=359&wc=3J6F-3TL%3A172124201%2C172124202%2C172124203%3Fcc%3D1874591&cc=1874591
It's the second one on the right page. I can read hija legitima de Juan Guerrero ia difunto, but I cannot figure out the mother's name. I think the apellido may be Chabes. Can anyone help?

May be "Ana de Chabes"?

I think you are right. Thank you.

Hi-
I agree that it say's Ana de Chavez. Ana and Juan Gutierrez (aka Guerrero). Agustin de Ursua and Bernarda Gutierrez are my 8th great grandparents. I have them on WikiTree at http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Guti%C3%A9rrez-186 where I added a transcription of their marriage record.

Buenas noches,
Austin

Nicolas de Ursua married to Josepha Rodriguez Martin de Chabes (IM-1708 attached)

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939N-BL51

The parents of Nicolas de Ursua are listed as Augustin de Ursua and Bernarda Rodriguez and originally from Aguascalientes. The record you attached to deciper Ana de Chabes states an explanation of aguascalientes being his place of origin but the birth record states Jalisco. They seem to be the same person except for the timeframe of birth and IM date of birth. Of course, the priest could have made mistakes as in the case in several of my ancestors records.

Are they the same person, perhaps I missed something. I just found this record of marriage yesterday as he is married to my 1st cousin 8x removed.

Many thanks to everyone. Excellent information.

On 7 May 1708 in Lagos, Nicolas de Ursua provided information to marry Josefa Martinez, 'espanola' from Hacienda la Pendencia in Sierra de Pinos, daughter of Pascual Rodriguez and Matiana Martinez (deceased). In the IM he states that he is from Rio de Santa Maria in the 'parroquia' of Lagos, he is the legitimate son of Agustin de Ursua and Bernarda Gutierrez, 'espanoles'. He declares that he is 24 years old which is 7 years older than the age of the Nicolas baptized in Lagos on 30 Sept 1677. Perhaps he didn't know when he was born and therefore didn't know his true age (not uncommon) or maybe the Nicolas born in 1677 died young and this is a second Nicolas?

The IM is at: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-V1N9-C?i=110&wc=3J8Q-L2S%3A172124201%2C172124202%2C175317901%3Fcc%3D1874591&cc=1874591

Saludos
Austin Perez

Hi Austin - My line of descent is actually through the brother of Nicolas, Manuel. He was born in 1679 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-K9D1-P?mode=g&i=71&wc=3J86-YWP%3A172124201%2C172124202%2C172153501%3Fcc%3D1874591&cc=1874591 and married Petra Ornelas in 1707. https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-K98W-N?mode=g&i=162&wc=3J86-YWP%3A172124201%2C172124202%2C172153501%3Fcc%3D1874591&cc=1874591

The marriage certificate also states that Manuel is from Rio de Santa Maria and that Petronila is from Hacienda de San Matias. But unfortunately it doesn't give parents' names. I can verify Manuel's from his death certificate, but I haven't been able to find Petra's.

I get really frustrated with trying to work with información matrimonial. Do you have any suggestions? Almost every time I have tried, I can get to a month before the marriage in question and then it skips to six months after. I am really interested in this particular marriage because I can't find any other information about Petra / Petronila Ornelas.

Thanks for all your help. I especially like your wiki pages.

Daniel

Thanks Austin

Two would make sense. The two Nicolas' are surely related, first they marry into the Chabes, and Rodriguez, as many of us know, families seem to marry into the same families.

What is a mystery are the differences in surnames of bernarda, it could mean two bernardas which was a name in fashion at the time and the "original de Aguascalientes" for Agustin. I will keep looking for answers and hope someone else has a piece to contribute.

Hi Daniel,
I too descend from this couple. They are my 7th great grandparents. Below is the relavent information from their IM which is located at:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-VY9S-WC?i=119&wc=3JZP-L29%3A172124201%2C172124202%2C175287501%3Fcc%3D1874591&cc=1874591

agos, 29 enero 1707: Manuel de Ursúa, español [de edad veintiún años], originario y vecino de esta feligresía en el Río de Santa María, hijo legítimo de Agustín de Ursúa y de Bernarda Gutiérrez, parezco ante vuestra merced como mejor haya lugar y digo que tengo tratado y concertado el contraer matrimonio según orden de Nuestra Madre Iglesia con Petronila de Ornelas, española [de edad de dieciocho años], originaria y vecina de esta feligresía en la hacienda de San Matías, hija legítima de José de Ornelas y de Ángela Pérez

testigos: Felipe de Espinoza, español y vecino de esta villa, dijo ser de edad de treinta y un años y que en las generales no le tocan; José Manuel Ramos, español y vecino de esta feligresía en la hacienda de San Matías, dijo ser de edad de cuarenta años y que en las generales no le tocan; Bartolomé González Montero, español y vecino de esta villa, dijo ser de edad de veinticinco años

Regarding searching documents that are not in chronological order; I have no answer except to say that you need patience, lots of patience. The following link is to a spreadsheet that was shared by a Nuestros Ranchos member some time ago and which I've added to when I search the archives. The way it is setup is that each tab represents a parrish or other resource. The columns are the film numbers and the rows are the image numbers. Some of the films may not be correctly indexed due to LDS rearranging the image numbering.

Best regards
Austin Perez

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3835176/Registros%20de%20Los%20Altos.xls

Hello Daniel. My stepfather Anastacio Sanchez married my mother and they had five children. I had one of my half sisters take the dna test. The results were 60% Native American. I found one family member for Urzua that are identified as Indian. My step father's and all his siblings had blue, green or hazel eyes and white skin. My stepfather was born in 1914. His gggrandfather Onofre Sanchez Married Maria Jesus Gutierrez in 1847, Villa de Garcia, Nuevo Leon. Do you have these names in your family tree?

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