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Petronila de Moctezuma

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By gpf13 - Posted on 22 September 2015

A question for Rick Ricci ...

In your info on the Villalpandos posted a few days ago, you mentioned that Petronila de Moctezuma is mentioned that court records show that Petronila is named in the litigation over inheritance (the encomienda?), which confirms she is one of the "other five children" (these, I assume being the children vaguely referenced in the Codex Chimalpahin).

Do you have a reference or citation to a specific document, or group of documents? In PARES, perhaps?

I have read the postings here at NR concerning Guillermo Tovar de Teresa's unpublished work that discusses her ancestry, but no documents were identified. It is unclear if his final work will be published.

I have also read numerous posts that identify Martin Navarro, as "Martin Gabai, el Navarro," but I have seen no contemporary documents that name him in this manner.

I have seen only one document that names Martin Navarro and Petronila de Moctezuma. Are there others that have been digitized? This is a marriage dispensation for Bartholome Rodrigues Baxo (or Bajo); this was excerpted in "Genealogia de Nochistlan Antiguio Reino de la Nueva Galicia" and it's location identified by the work of Claudia Reynoso, and others. Please see my NR posting at http://www.nuestrosranchos.com/es/node/20112, and the comments/replies made by other members (such as Armando who provide a transcription at http://www.nuestrosranchos.com/es/node/20566).

If there are other documents that name Petronila, and/or Martin, even if they are not digitized and available on the web, identifying them would be beneficial.

----

On another topic ....

At the Denver Public Library's website, there is information on early New Mexico families, including a report on the descendants of Juan de Villalpando and Ursula Olaes. They were from Leon, GTO, as were at least some of the Villalpando's in Aguascalientes.

This report names more than 2500 descendants of Juan and Ursula, but unfortunately there are no references whatsoever, thus diminishing its value.

I have not been able to connect Tomas de Villalpando, and his wife Maria Velez, with Juan de Villalpando of Leon, or with Diego de Villalpando of Aguascalientes.

Tomas and Maria had at least two sons, Tomas (II) and Marcos. Tomas (II) left many descendants in Aguascalientes, but I have yet to identify any descendants of Marcos (but I will admit not having spent much time researching in the Guanajuato church records).

George Fulton

A few months ago, a nuestroranchos member mentioned that court records show that Petronila is named in the litigation over inheritance, which confirms she is one of the "other five vaguely referenced in the Codex Chimalpahin. I have not seen those records. They spoke of more than one record.

I do not have a reference or citation to a specific document, or group of documents. I was hoping that the person that had stated this information would speak up and identify where we could find this information.

I would like to hear your opinion on Guillermo Tovar de Teresa's statements regarding the Romo de Vivar / Rangel ancestors..

You have seen only one document that names Martin Navarro and Petronila de Moctezuma. I have seen two. Besides the Bartolome Rodriguez Bajo dispensation there is the document that I saw in the west Los Angeles Mormon Library that I can no longer find.

The other documents that name Petronila but the nuestroranchos member did not mention Martin being in those records. I don't know if they are digitized and available on the web, but I agree with you, identifying them would be highly beneficial.

On the other topic of the Villalpandos, While we have not completed the connections between the Juan de Villalpando, Diego Villalpando, and Tomas Villapando, we have identified that they have connections to Aguascalientes, Guanajuato and New Mexico. I believe that we have connected enough pieces to the puzzle to show that they knew and embraced the connection between them. One My Villalpandos ancestors birth in Taos New Mexico while his children and parents were born in Jalostotitlan has sparked a curiosity that leads me to seek out the connection between all these branches. I connected this branch to Zacatecas and then you connected it to Diego Villalpando in Aguascalientes. I connected The Tepatitlan branch to the Flores Villalpando branch in Guanajuato which I believe descends from one of Tomas Villalpandos sons who marries a Flores. You have connected these Villalpandos to the Villalpandos from Aguascalientes. Juan Villalpando and Ursula Olaes have been identified as being from Leon Guanajuato but I believe that we should be able to find the connection through my ancestors in Jalostotitlan. When my ancestors visited their family in New Mexico they may have left some record of how they were related since during this visit one ancestor of mine was born there. I'm hoping his baptismal record or birth record may shed some light when we identify his padrinos. Though we do not have enough pieces to connect all of these people, they all seem to be interconnected and a pride in their Villalpando name and family members

Rick

It is very hard to have a meaningful opinion on this ancestry. There are no citations to accessible documents (note that I posted a request for a scan of Diego Romo de Vivar's baptismal record, but I have not had a response) that I have seen. Posted genealogies with their ancestry are undocumented, thus are not much value.

Without evidence to review, any opinion is simply speculation.

George Fulton

The problem is that most people, over 99 %, just repeat what genealogists have stated over the years. I myself continue to have the traditional dates and people as the parents in my family tree but I do add notes that there are a couple of points that should be addressed before stating that they are 100 per cent confirmed.
First Sr. Teresa de Tovar stated that he had a lot of proof showing a different Rangel tree. The second point is that in the records that show the officials of the inquisition there is a Diego Romo de Vivar from the same time frame as our Diego de Vivar but his parents have different names. Either our Diego Romo de Vivar was not an official of the inquisition as the genealogists have stated or there is an error in the records. If our Diego Romo de Vivar was not a member of the inquisition than Guillermo Teresa de Tovar statements regarding him being deeply involved in the silver mines, and the different Rangel ancestry makes more sense. Since Guillermo Teresa de Tovar is not here to defend his statements we are left to wonder where he found his information.

If the statement that our Diego Romo de Vivar ancestor was an official of the inquisition is true, then we need to change who we have as his parents. I personally read the inquisition records, they definitely name different parents.

Rick A. Ricci

Mr. Ricci,

Couldn't our Diego Romo de Vivar have also been working for the Inquisition
and been a miner too. why do they have to be different people. where does
it say that the other Diego Romo de Vivar has different parents? is there a
source that we can see.

Danny C. Alonso

Dear Danny,

Yes, our Diego Romo de Vivar could have been both a member off the inquisition and worked extensively in the mines. But if he was in the inquisition, then he should have been in the book that recorded all the officials of the inquisition in Mexico. If he was an official of the inquisition, and he was the one listed in the records, then he has different parents than the ones that everyone claims. If he was not an official of the inquisition, and he was the Diego Romo de Vivar that worked in the mines then he had a wife that was surnamed Rangel but had different parents then the ones listed. There are two Diego Romo de Vivars with two spouses with the Rangel surname apparently. Since the wives have different parents and the husbands have different parents we must identify them as two separate couples. Then we must identify the correct couple that is the ancestor to our Romo de Vivar line. It seems that either everyone has the wrong husband or the wrong wife listed as an ancestor.

If there is something wrong with this logic I would hope that someone would clarify the situation for me. Except for George, I don't see anyone else questioning what everyone takes for granted.

PS. I have looked over the inquisition records over and over again. There is only one Diego Romo de Vivar listed as an official of the inquisition and he is not the one that everyone identifies as our ancestor.

Some clarification should be provided when Sr.Teresa de Tovars book is published. We could then look at his information on the miner diego romo de Vivar and see if correlates with the data we have confirmed. He was positive that the diego romo de Vivar that we claim as an ancestor was married to a different woman/Rangel then the one that is claimed. Actually the claim is different parents for her. If we find evidence that we descend from the other Rangel woman then that means we descend from the Diego Romo de Vivar that was an inquisitor and not the miner.

Even though the Romo de Vivar is of great interest to my family, I Can not spend a lot of time researching this at this moment because I have some other goodies already on the fire where I do have answers to questions that have befuddled genealogists for generations. Much of my present research is directed to areas that pertain to the book I am presently writing. As it is, because of work commitments, I will most probably do little genealogical research in the next few months. Then it will most likely involve research for last second additions to the book. My Romo de Vivar research will most likely have to wait to mid 2016.

Thanks,
Rick A. Ricci

Dear George,

In my book on my Romo de Vivar family I do provide a citation to the record naming a Diego Romo de Vivar as an official to the inquisition. I would like to clarify Señor Teresa de Tovars claims before I publish this book since I need clarification on the Rangel branch of the family. Also research into Señor Teresa' de Tovars claims will be needed to support my claims since everyone takes the information that is out there for granted. His research should confirm my claims that the two Diego Romo de Vivars are being confused with one another and once this acknowledgement is made than we can look to separate the two individuals and indent iffy the correct one. Sr. Teresa de Tovar himself took for granted Diego Romo de Vivar and only questioned, and identified, different parents for the wife. He never questioned if There was another Diego Romo De Vivar that was our ancestor. But his statements only renewed my confusion over the inquisition records which state different parents.

Thanks again for all your help,
Rick A Ricci

Dear George,

The Vallalpando (Flores Villalpando) branch from Valle de Guadalupe/ Tepatitlan / Ayo el Chico / Arandas leads to ciudad Manuel Doblado, Guanajuato. From there I believe it leads to Tomas son married to a Flores that you posted . I don't recall whether you had them marrying in Aguascalientes or Guanajuato.

The other branch from Valle de Guadalupe / jalostotitlan/ Teocaltiche /Zacatecas was the one you helped me connect to Aguascalientes.

Since both branches left descendants in Valle de Guadalupe where two couples of the same names (Casillas-Villalpando are married in the same year there has been great confusion as which of these two couples are the parents of Francisco Casillas Villalpando. It was only through a document from Claudias dispenses, and real estate records of inheritance that the issue was finally resolved.

I am bringing this same confusion to the "established Romo de Vivar lineage". People that want to stay with the established lines will just ignore this evidence. But I am only seeking to clarify and make sense of the new information that we been provided with. Acknowledging the information in the inquisition records, and Señor Teresa de Tovars claims necessitates questioning accepted truths, and changing our beliefs is a necessity if the facts warrant it.

Thanks again,
Rick A Ricci

Dear George,

In a previous post you identified another Diego Romo de Vivar in addition to the one we all identify as the progenitor of the Romo de Vivars. You wrote.:

"Diego Romo, natural de Rielves (en la información pone Illán de Vacas), soltero, hijo de Juan Romo y Ana Diaz (de Aguero), al Perú como criado del licenciado Luis Romo. Información y licencia en CONTRATACION, 5234B, N.1, R.30. The reocrd is also dated Dec. 17, 1591."
In http://www.nuestrosranchos.com/en/node/17268?page=1

When you add the Diego Romo de Vivar that I found as an official of the inquisition then we have three men named "Diego Romo de Vivar" who are contemporaries.

Diego Romo de Vivar, official de the inquisition in what is now known as Mexico, born in the late 1500's contemporary of the Diego Romo de Vivar born in Rielves (just outside Toledo) in 1589

This Diego Romo de Vivar ( aka Diego Perez de Vivar (III)
Son of. Diego Perez de Vivar (II) and Maria Romo

Diego Perez de Vivar (II) of Diego Perez de Vivar (I) born in Fuensalida ( close to Rielves, just outside Toledo) and Maria Diaz

Maria Romo is the daughter of Pedro Romo born in Rielves and Maria Diaz

Buenas Noches
le envio un cordial saludo a usted y a todos los miembros de este foro
una pregunta compañeros

alguien a tenido noticias sobre la publicación del libro de don Guillermo tovar de teresa donde menciona los documento en donde habla del linaje de Petronila de Moctezuma asi como su relación con el emperador Moctezuma ll?

yo soy descendiente de martin gabay navarro y de Petronila de Moctezuma y de esta pareja de su hija ana francisca gabay y lope ruiz de esparza por varias líneas de los hijos de esta ultima pareja.

espero y podremos encontrar el eslabón que nos faltan a muchos de nosotros para relacionar a Petronila de Moctezuma con el emperador Moctezuma ll
por su atención muchas gracias a todos
que tengan un excelente noche saludos
estamos en contacto.

Rick

Thanks for all the information! I'm looking forward to when your book is published.

George Fulton

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