You are hereForums / Genealogy Research / Possible Family of Benito de Isla and Petronila de Moctezuma

Possible Family of Benito de Isla and Petronila de Moctezuma

warning: Creating default object from empty value in /home/lafamilia/nuestrosranchos.com/sites/all/modules/mailhandler/mailhandler.module on line 123.

By The Genealogist - Posted on 26 May 2015

Hello,

I have recently discovered that I descend from a Benito de Isla whose many descendants spread throughout Nochistlan. I hit the brick wall there, and I do not know who Benito’s wife was. Normally I would assume that the traceable ancestry ends there. However, I have spotted miscellaneously placed postings that allude to a specific ancestry for Benito de Isla and his unnamed wife when they are all placed together. Unfortunately I have been unable to pinpoint the sources for most of these postings – this is where I need help.

But to start with:

PART 1: What is Provable:

From the primary sources that I have been able to access and see with my own eyes, I have mapped out the following:

Benito de Isla was the father of Magdalena de Lavezaris (wife of Francisco Gonzalez) and Maria de Isla y Moctezuma (wife of Capitan Andres Martinez de Sotomayor). This same Benito de Isla also had a natural mestiza daughter named Maria de Isla.

There is another Maria de Isla who was married to Christobal Martinez Lozano and had a family in Aguascalientes. This Maria de Isla (wife of Christobal Martinez Lozano) had a sister named Petronila de Isla.

PART 2: What I suspect (Part A): The Maria de Isla’s:

I think that the Maria de Isla (the mestiza) is possibly one and the same with the Maria de Isla who was married to Christobal Martinez Lozano. However, I have not seen this Maria de Isla (wife of Christobal Martinez Lozano) ever mentioned as anything but “espanol;” the same goes for her children. Then again I have seen many examples within these Mexican colonial records were people who are more accurately and originally described as mixed race, appear later in life described as “espanol”. If these two Maria de Isla’s are the same person then Benito de Isla is also the father of Petronila de Isla.

I do not think the Maria de Isla (wife of Chritobal Martinez Lozano) is the same person as Maria de Isla y Moctezuma (wife of Capitan Andres Martinez de Sotomayor). There seem to be too many children born to both of these women to be same one.

Does anyone have any opinions on this?

PART 2: What I suspect (Part B): The Lavezaris Connection:

Since Benito de Isla had a daughter who used the name Magdalena de Lavezaris. That name must have come from somewhere further back. I think that Benito de Isla is the son of a Bernardino de Isla and another Magdalena de Lavezaris who was the sister of Guido de Lavezaris, Governor-General of the Philippines.

Does anyone have any opinions on this?

PART 2: What I suspect (Part C): The Moctezuma Connection:

Since Benito de Isla had a daughter who used the name Maria de Isla y Moctezuma. That name must have come from somewhere further back. I suspect the connection was matrilineal but have never seen a wife listed for Benito de Isla from my own research. (Benito de Isla possibly being the father of Petronila de Isla also comes into play here.)

I have spotted a few interesting postings that allude to Benito de Isla’s wife. However, they are un-sourced postings, I have been unable to make contact with the people who posted them, and have not been able to pinpoint any primary sources for the following:

From other’s Postings:

1. I have seen a forum (here at Nuestros Ranchos) where a Petronila de Isla is described as being the daughter of a Benito de Isla and a Juana Navarro. I have been unable to contact the person who posted this. Does anyone know where this information comes from?

2. I have seen a tree on Ancestry.com where Benito de Isla is married to a Juana Navarro. Here Juana Navarro dies 28 Dec 1651 in Teocaltiche. The death records in Teocaltiche do not go back that far. Does anyone know where this information comes from?

3. In another tree on Ancestry.com, Benito de Isla is married to a Juana “Navarro y Moctezuma.” Wonderful, if her name actually appears this way, but does anyone know where this information comes from?

4. I have seen forums of the couple Martin de Gabay Navarro and Petronila de Moctezuma as having 4 children: Ana-Francisca, Maria, Christobal, and JUANA. Ana-Francisca, Maria, and Christobal are provable children via various dispensas. But where does the information of this couple also having a daughter named Juana come from? Does anyone know?

PART 3 Conclusions?:

All of this starts to lean in a certain direction. Let us assume that, outside of what is provable, what I suspect is true and what others have posted is also true; that all that is needed is to pinpoint a few more sources. Then the following is a possible reconstruction of the whole picture:

Benito de Isla (son of Bernardino de Isla and Magdalena de Lavezaris) married a Juana Navarro (daughter of Martin de Gabay Navarro and Petronila de Moctezuma) and had as daughters Magdalena de Lavezaris (named after her paternal grandmother), Maria de Isla y Moctezuma (partially named after her maternal grandmother), Petronila de Isla (also partially named after her maternal grandmother), with the additional Maria de Isla (the Mestiza daughter born from another woman).

Chronologically it fits, though a little tight on Petronila de Moctezuma’s side if we assume she was born about 1552, allegedly had the said Juana by 1572, Juana having Magdalena de Lavezaris and Maria de Isla y Moctezuma by the time she was age 15 c. 1587, and both Madalena and Maria also starting to have children by about age 15, since most of their traceable children have their earliest estimated birth years in the late 1600’s early 1610’s. Keep in mind that 15 is a typical age for young girls to marry in this time period.

I would appreciate any opinions, corrections, or primary sources on these matters which may prove or refute the possible reconstruction of this tree.

Regards,

David

I don't think I fully understand how these trees work. Are the people on
line 1, brother and sister and then the people in line 2 are 1st Cousins
and then the people in line 3 are second cousins or is it read differently?

Andres Martin de Sotomayor......1.......Ysabel Martin
m. Maria de Isla y Moctezuma............m. Juan Diaz de la Huerta

Andres Martin Camacho...........2.......Josefa Diaz
m. Beatriz de Mayorga...................m. N.N.

Andres Martin de Sotomayor......3.......Angela Diaz
........................................m. Isidro Villalobos

................................4.......Juana Cayatana de Villalobos

Danny C. Alonso

Chris,

In your reference to the passage dated December 17, 1716 I noticed the names
Joseph Gonzalez Lozano and Maria Flores de Sandi. In researching my
ancestors in Nueva Galicia, I found a record dated September 17, 1752 that
records that baptism of Juana Maria Lozano Dias. The baptism was performed
in Teocaltiche and the parents are Juan Miguel Lozano (my ancestor) and
Lorenza Dias de Sandi. I was curious to know if you had seen any
relationships after 1716 between these two families. Thank you in advance
for any information you can provide.

Regards, Bob Lozano

Hi Bob,
Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with the particular families mentioned in the dispensa or the specific couple Juan Miguel Lozano and Lorenza Diaz de Sandi. I just posted the information from Sagrada Mitra de Guadalajara that was in question. I do have some Lozanos in my tree, but, most of them are in the 17th century. The most recent Lozano I have is my 8th Great Grandmother, Juana Manuela Lozano de Gardea that married Bartolome Joseph Martel, but, I do not know her parents or have any information beyond her. I also descend from Isabel Lozano de Gardea, my 12th Great Grandmother, the daughter of Cristóbal Lozano and Maríana González de Gardea.  Beyond that, I don't think I really have anything that will be of any help.

Chris

Hi Danny C. Alonso,

In answer to your questions, "Are the people on line 1, brother and sister and then the people in line 2 are 1st Cousins and then the people in line 3 are second cousins or is it read differently?"

The answer is, yes: "1" would be siblings, "2" are 1st cousins, "3" is 2nd cousins etc.

As many of the communities where our ancestors lived were isolated, the "marriage pools" were limited to the few families that lived in any given area. As a consequence, after 3 or 4 generations, everyone in town is your 2nd- or 3rd- cousin. To prevent inbreeding, the Church would "monitor" these couplings, and try to prevent them; recognizing that they couldn't, they would issue dispensations to those couples who qualified (this is a simplified explanation).

The Church used a system of degrees ("grados," in Spanish), to establish the severity of the consanguinity (related by blood) or affinity (related by marriage or an iilicit relationship) between a given couple:

Siblings: 1o (primero) grado
1st-cousins: 2o grado
2nd-cousins: 3o grado
3rd-cousins: 4o grado

Anything below 4o grado required a dispensation; anything more than 4o, they felt enough generations had passed, to prevent children from being "born with tails."

The dispensations sometimes contain a tree diagram, explaining the relationship, while on others, it might say, "the pretensos are great-grandchildren of 2 siblings," or, "the grandparents of the siblings were primos hermanos," whichout listing the names of the ancestors.

In case you don't have them, here is a link to the Guadalajara Marriage Dispensary, where many of the dispensations have been indexed: http://www.guadalajaradispensas.com/

And here's a link to Katy's Guadalajara dispensas indexes:
http://guadalajaradispensas.tumblr.com/

I hope that helps!
Manny Diez Hermosillo

Thank you Manny for the information and the dispensations links, I finally
understand how to read them. I have a question about this tree here. On
Josefa Diaz under her it says m. N.N. does that mean she wasn't married
when she had Angela Diaz

Andres Martin de Sotomayor......1.......Ysabel Martin
m. Maria de Isla y Moctezuma............m. Juan Diaz de la Huerta

Andres Martin Camacho...........2.......Josefa Diaz
m. Beatriz de Mayorga...................m. N.N.

Andres Martin de Sotomayor......3.......Angela Diaz
........................................m. Isidro Villalobos

................................4.......Juana Cayatana de Villalobos

Danny C. Alonso

N.N. means they do not know the name of the spouse or person with whom they
had children.

N.N. - nomen nescio [Latin], name unknown
N.N. - non nominatus / non nominata' [Latin], not named

On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 11:53 PM, Danny Alonso wrote:

> Thank you Manny for the information and the dispensations links, I finally
> understand how to read them. I have a question about this tree here. On
> Josefa Diaz under her it says m. N.N. does that mean she wasn't married
> when she had Angela Diaz
>
> Andres Martin de Sotomayor......1.......Ysabel Martin
> m. Maria de Isla y Moctezuma............m. Juan Diaz de la Huerta
>
> Andres Martin Camacho...........2.......Josefa Diaz
> m. Beatriz de Mayorga...................m. N.N.
>
> Andres Martin de Sotomayor......3.......Angela Diaz
> ........................................m. Isidro Villalobos
>
> ................................4.......Juana Cayatana de Villalobos
>
> Danny C. Alonso

Thank you Armando. Is there a reason they wouldn't name Josefa Diaz husband
or did they leave him out because he wasn't important to the tree? I have
some ancestors with the same names in the tree (villalobos & Sotomayor) and
am just trying to save everyone with the same names in case I find I'm
connected to them.

Danny C. Alonso

Always go to the source whenever there is a question about the data
extracted from a dispensa. There is no tree in the dispensa which means
that the tree was made by Jaime Holcombe based on what was written in the
document which says "*Isabel Marín y Andrés Martín fueron hermanos y la
dicha Isabel fue madre de Josefa Díaz y esta lo fue de Ángela Díaz quien lo
es de dicha Juana Cayetana......dicho Andrés Martín fue padre de Andrés
Martín y este lo es del pretenso*"

The father of Ángela Díaz was not named since he is not needed to determine
how the two people are related which is all they needed in order to be
granted the dispensa. The dispensa is indexed at
http://www.guadalajaradispensas.com/2011/12/1687-1749-1828-fhl-source-film-167988.html
and the dispensa starts at
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18403-64936-14

On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 1:11 AM, Danny Alonso wrote:

> Thank you Armando. Is there a reason they wouldn't name Josefa Diaz husband
> or did they leave him out because he wasn't important to the tree? I have
> some ancestors with the same names in the tree (villalobos & Sotomayor) and
> am just trying to save everyone with the same names in case I find I'm
> connected to them.
>
> Danny C. Alonso

I wanted to clarify some things about the reason for the dispensas. The rules for marrying a relative started in the 11th century in Europe and I believe the rules still exist. My 5th great-grandfather from Vizcaya, País Vasco had to get a dispensa to marry his 2nd cousin. There likely weren't very many people in his region that he could marry that weren't related to him. This is probably the case in many parts of Europe. I have read about people doing genealogy and DNA testing in the British Isles and Ireland coming to the same conclusion. However, it was probably more common in Jalisco, Aguascalientes, and Zacatecas since the españoles wanted to maintain their status for themselves and their children and they had fewer people to choose a partner from. Many of the people in the dispensas mention that they want to marry someone from the same class but they can't find anyone that isn't related. So the marriage pool was even more limited due to the class limitation.

I have another question about this tree. Now that I understand how to read
them I wantd to know if any of these Andres Martin de Sotomayors are the
same as my Ancestor Andres Martin de Sotomayor married to Lucia Chaves or
where on the tree this Andres martin de Sotomayor fits in

Andres Martin de Sotomayor......1.......Ysabel Martin
m. Maria de Isla y Moctezuma............m. Juan Diaz de la Huerta

Andres Martin Camacho...........2.......Josefa Diaz
m. Beatriz de Mayorga...................m. N.N.

Andres Martin de Sotomayor......3.......Angela Diaz
........................................m. Isidro Villalobos

................................4.......Juana Cayatana de Villalobos

Danny C. Alonso

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

Navigation

Who's online

There are currently 1 user and 4 guests online.

Online users

  • jospuen

Languages