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Francisco Michel Ordones

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By coronaarechiga - Posted on 16 November 2014

I have found a major flaw in my tree. It seems I have fallen victim to the syndrome of "too many people with the same name." I somehow had combined Francisco Michel-Ordones (1), married to Michaela Lopez-Bueso, with Francisco Michel-Ordones (2), married to Manuela Lopez-Bueso and then to Lorenza Gertrudes Gonzales. My husband is a direct descendant of both of these men.

Francisco (1), was married to Michaela up to the time of his death in 1709:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18721-8269-65?cc=1874591&wc=12508902

I have 7 children listed for this couple: Maria (Directly descended), Dominga, Domingo, Juana, Ascencio, Ignacio, Regina. I haven't located a marriage for this couple nor can I verify their parents...although there are several possibilities. A strong possibility is that he is the brother of Thomas Michel-Ordones, father of Francisco (2).

Francisco (2), was born to Thomas Michel-Ordones and Augustina Escobar in 1694 in Autlan:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18561-19394-40?cc=1874591&wc=12504693

was married to Manuela Lopez-Bueso until her death in 1742 in Sayula:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18571-57336-26?cc=1874591&wc=12509784

I have 5 children listed for this couple: Maria de la Concepcion, Juan Matias, Thomas, Julio Feliciano, and Justa Maria.

Francisco (2) married in 1744 in Sayula:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18578-4484-49?cc=1874591&wc=M99L-N21:1567847509

This couple had at least 6 children: Maria Magdalena (directly descended), Bernardino Jose, Juan Marcelo, Agustin Maria, Josef Francisco, and Thomas.

I've spent hours sorting out these two people and their families, but now I can't seem to be left with a swirl of information. I would greatly appreciate if someone could provide a life-preserver...or at least a stick.

Thank you,
Deedra Corona

Hello, Sergio, Enrique, Gil, Juan, and NR friends,

There has been a lot to absorb and compare. Firstly, I would like to concede that Gil was correct regarding the name of Maria de Navarette. When I studied it again what I had mistaken for Lucia is actually "Olios a."

For the children of Juana Betancur AKA Michel Ordones and Hernan Gonzales Corona I also have: Fernando Gonzales Corona married to Angela Caro-Renteria. In the marriage Juana is referred to as Juana Michel.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18715-13236-15?cc=1874591&wc=12509487

In the baptism of his daughter, Juana, it mentions that Angela is widowed; meaning that Fernando died sometime during 1703.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18561-19692-27?cc=1874591&wc=M99L-ZZV:n1610887082

Not sure if it has been provided previously, but for Domingo Michel Ordones I have a baptism: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18684-28421-25?cc=1874591&wc=12511381

Sergio, please keep us informed regarding the book by your friend, Alfredo Ignacio Peña, and how we might purchase it.

Thank you,
Deedra Corona

Everyone, last week was very productive with so much shared information on the Michels thank you all for sharing and rechecking this family information. Regarding the Preciado family's close connection to the Lopez Bueso's, curious to know Juan, if you have the parents of Maria Antonia Preciado the mother of Maria Augustin Vasquez. Would Maria Antonia Preciado be the sister of Juan Antonio Preciado or is she the grand-daughter of Nicolas Preciado? NEVER MIND - Finally saw you clarified she is Nicolas's daughter.

Also, on my tree I have Ygnacio/Ignacio Michel born in 1718 as the son of Manuela Lopez Bueso
from the following dispensation provided by Deedra.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-29495-12368-12?cc=1937239&wc=M287-W3X:236973901

This dispensation covers the connected relationships that allowed the great-grandchild of Manuela to marry the grand-child from her brother Joseph Caytano: Juan Jose Michel with Maria Candalaria Cobian.

Much thanks eveyrone!

Gil

Sergio, amazing! Thanks for so many referenced documents. When I just began building out my tree on the Michels two years ago I cold-contacted Alfredo Ignacio Peña who guided me to prove my connection to the Perez de Alencastre family. He also provided me with a partial list of family names that went straight to Diego Martin who married Elvira Ordones the parents of Cristobal Ordonez (Just searching the last name Ordonez list indexes dating back to 1548).

At the time his computer with all his data had crashed and he was in pursuit of the hard copy family book with all the Michel info in it. I have since lost contact with Alfredo and I recall he was at a dead-end on Diego Martin's origins.

Now that said, on myheritage.com the family tree service I use, there is another member who may be a member here too and I asked her to join in on the conversation-- her tree has a Juana de Betancor Ruiz circa 1610 with a sister Isabel Betancor Ruiz married to Francisco Garsia de Alba, as the father of Francisco Garsia de Alba married to Casilda de Ortega.

I hope she may have documents to confirm her connections but they certainly fit in the time line if confirmed. She goes one better listing the parents of Juana and Isabel as Hernando de Alarcon Betancor and Isabel Francesca.

On a side note in anticipation of Alfredo's book, my grandfather Eulalio Torres was a Cristero commander in Michoacan.

Gil Topete

Manny, you add some more great pieces to the family puzzle identifying information that could have been easily overlooked because of the variations on names but I am at a loss to answer the question. Using the baptism date for Juan Michel you provided I did want to provide his record for those like me who are catching up rather fast:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18621-66877-20?cc=1874591&wc=SSGT-C68:171935001,182938601,1080814502

Also I am unable to find the records for Manuel and Juan searching this book
from 1603 foward:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18621-67198-32?cc=1874591&wc=MCCG-8NL:171935001,182938601,182938602

Gil Topete

Hello Gil,

Sorry, I should've provided those:

Juan Espinosa Rifarache, 13 May 1603
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18621-67073-36?cc=1874591&wc=MCCG-8NL:171935001,182938601,182938602

Manuel Espinosa Rifarache 15 May 1614
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18621-66702-38?cc=1874591&wc=MCCG-8NL:171935001,182938601,182938602

On the same image that has the marriage of Melchor Espinosa and Josepha de Torrequemada, the first entry on the left side is for Juan Pedro Cardenas and Ana Maria de Torquemada (the ceremony was performed by Juan de Torquemada); I wonder is there is any relation?
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18621-67202-13?cc=1874591&wc=MCCG-8NL:171935001,182938601,182938602

I’ve found 5 children for Juan Pedro Cardona and Maria Torquemada, and there is no reference to “Rifarache.” I haven’t pulled the records, I’ll check to see who padrinos are.

Manny Diez Hermosillo
http://www.nuestrosranchos.com/jrefugioghermosillo

Hello Gil and NR Friends,
Here is the Dispensa I used to make the connection to her parents.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-31174-2563-38?cc=1937239&wc=M28W-W38:236084801

Also, I have a Testamento for Agustin Maria Michel, son of Francisco Michel and Lorensa Gertrudes Gonzales. This is the only document I have found that establishes him as their son.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18561-65972-5?cc=1874591&wc=12504053

Deedra Corona

Hello everyone,

So much useful information was presented in these Michel posts that I have had to read and re-read them several times to process all the information. When I first posted on this subject I believed I was not a direct descendant of Francisco Michel Ordones. After researching all this information, it turns out I am a direct descendant after all!

Some of the information was hypothetical and I would like to discuss that. Sergio, you pointed out that you believe Francisco Michel who was married to Juana Betancur Ruiz, married a second time, possibly to Luisa de Gusman. While it's definitely possible he was married twice, why do you suspect that's the case? The baptism you provided for Antonio Michel (son of Juan Michel and Luisa de Gusman) is an interesting clue, even though the father's name is noted as Juan Michel. The problem is that the date of the baptism is 1679. If we accept Manny's data that Francisco Michel, son of Juan Michel and Graciana Corona, was born in 12 May 1609, then that means that our Francisco Michel had Antonio Michel at the age of 70. Not impossible but not as probable either.
The other thing is you said that you have Tomas Michel married to Agustina Vargas as the son of Francisco Michel Ordones but a mother other than Juana Betancur Ruiz. How did you arrive at that conclusion? Thanks to Deedra who provided us with that gem of dispensa, we know that Thomas Michel and Nicolasa Michel were in fact siblings.

Deedra, you also proposed some interesting theories. First that Francisco Michel Ordones married to Michaela Lopez Bueso is the son of Francisco Michel Ordones and Juana Betancur Ruiz. This seems very likely since Salvador Michel, who we know is the son Francisco and Juana, married Maria de la Rosa Lopez Bueso, Michaela's sister. As we know it's common for 2 brothers in a family to marry 2 sisters of another family.
You also proposed that Juan Michel married to Magdalena Cobarrubias is the brother of Salvador, Nicolasa, and Tomas Michel because they were padrinos at various baptisms and weddings of the Michel Family. This seems probable. This couple started appearing in these ceremonies around 1688. Juan Michel and Magdalena had a daughter, Juana Michel who was baptized Aug 15, 1690 (she later went on to marry Juan de Acosta). Magdalena Cobarrubias y Escobar later went on to marry Captain Juan de Fonseca around 1695 which means Juan Michel died between 1690 and 1695.

This information about Juan Michel married to Magdalena Cobarrubias and Juan Michel married to Luisa de Gusman leads me to believe they are the same person. Juan Michel had a son, Antonio with Luisa Gusman in 1679, then later a daughter Juana with Magdalena Cobarrubias in 1690. I estimate Juan Michel to be born between 1650 and 1660 and very possibly the son of Francisco Michel Ordones and Juana Betancur Ruiz.

Lastly I propose that Teresa de Betancur married to Francisco de Monrroy was also a child of Francisco Michel Ordones and Juana Betancur Ruiz. The reason I believe this (besides the name) is because she and her husband were padrinos to Regina Michel, daughter of Francisco Michel and Michaela Lopez Bueso and also Nicolasa Betancur and her husband were padrinos for the marriage of one of Teresa's daughters.

In conclusion and in my humble opinion, Francisco Michel Ordones and Juana Betancur Ruiz had the following children:

Salvador Michel Ordones m. Maria de la Rosa Lopes Bueso (documented)
Nicolasa Michel d. 1719 m. Francisco de Cobarrubias (partially documented)
Thomas Michel Ordones m. Agustina de Escobar y Vargas (partially documented)
Francisco Michel Ordones d. 1709 m. Michaela Lopes Bueso (not documented)
Juana Michel de Betancur d. 1706 m. Hernan Gonzalez Corona (not documented)
Teresa de Betancur d. 1716 m. Francisco de Monrroy (hypothesis)
Juan Michel d. 1690-1695 m. Luisa de Gusman, m. Magdalena Cobarrubias (hypothesis)

Thanks for all the info guys!

Juan Jimenez

P.S. Gil, I have come across some information about sisters Ysabel and Juana de Betancur that you might find very useful. I will post at a later time!

Hola primos,

Here are the ordenes for Gabriel Ordoñez, son of Cristobal Ordoñez and Francisca Rifarache, Sep 1600, Guadalajara, Jalisco.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-12044-35376-48?cc=1502404&wc=M6Q6-FWP:64894201,64894202,64894203

The first testigo, whose name I haven’t deciphered yet, says his wife is a 1st-cousin of Francisca de Rifarache.

Francisca de Rifarache was already deceased, but Img18b has Cristobal Ordoñez as a testigo, and he gives Gabriel’s birthdate as 20 Sep 1579, in Autlan. Cristobal gives his own age as "sesenta" or "setenta" anos mas o menos. That places his birth year between 1530 & 1540, so it's likely an arbitrary number. Regardless, it’s primary source, it places him and Francisca Rifarache in Autlan on 20 Sep 1579, it places him alive and in Guadalajara in Sep 1600, and it has his signature.

Here are the ordenes for his grandson, Diego de Espinosa, son of Melchor Espinosa and Josepha Ordoñez aka Josepha de Rifarache y Torquemada:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18377-26104-59?cc=1874591&wc=SSKH-FM9:171935001,171974101,179899801

So that establishes Josepha Ordoñez aka Josepha de Rifarache y Torquemada as a daughter of Cristobal Ordoñez and Francisca Rifarache. And it adds the surname “Torquemada” to the mix.

Saludos,
Manny Diez Hermosillo

Hello Manny, can you double check that first link? I am popping up in Mexico, Aguascalientes 1733 -1772 and not in Guadalajara circa 1600.

Your 2nd link for Diego de Espinosa's baptism is correct (middle right side).

Now on to the Torquemada equation.

Thanks

Gil

Hello Gil,

Oops, it was another archive I was looking at, when I posted. My bad. Try this, and if it doesn't work, it's on Guadalajara
Diócesis de Guadalajara Ordenes 1600-1699, img18b

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18377-22191-56?cc=1874591&wc=SSKH-6TG:171935001,171974101,179905901

Saludos!
Manny Diez Hermosillo

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