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petronila de moctezuma y martin navarro

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By GARY - Posted on 12 November 2013

hola
un cordial saludos
tengo algunas preguntas:

tengo entendido que ana franca gabay de moctezuma esposa de lope ruiz de esparza
es hija de martin de navarro y de petronila de moctezuma,ya que existe documento
que lo comprueba esa relacion hasta petronila de moctezuma tengo documentado.
El detalle es que he visto varios comentarios de varios investigadores y historiadores en la red donde se menciona que petronila de moctezuma es hija de diego arias de sotelo y leonor de balderrama de moctezuma.

Existe algun documento donde se menciona esta relacion?

solo necesitaria ese documento para poder comprobar que petronila de moctezuma es hija de diego arias de sotelo y leonor de valderrama de moctezuma?

las lineas de diego arias de sotelo y leonor valderrama de moctezuma por lo que veo ya estan comprobadas ya existe un arbol desde leonor valderrama hasta el emperador moctezuma ll.

necesitos solo ese enlace
alguin me puede ayudar?
se los agradeceria mucho

que tengan un buen dia
saludos

Hi Gary

I have the clear impression a number of researchers in this forum are looking for a record that documents the relationship between Petronila de Moctezuma, and Diego Arias Sotelo and Leonor Valderrama Moctezuma.

In the recent thread on Francisco Sotelo, it was made clear that Juan Sotelo who died in Aguascalientes in the 1640s, (husband of Joana Ruiz, father of five children with her and two with a first wife,) is the same Juan Sotelo of Michoacan who was the son of Fernando Sotelo who was the son of Diego Arias Sotelo and Leonor Valderrama.

If Petronila de Moctezuma is the daughter of Diego and Leonor, that would make her Juan Sotelos aunt.

What we dont seem to know yet, is how Francisco Sotelo is related to Juan.
Nor do we have Petronila de Moctezuma's name on a document other than a dispensa (someone correct me if I am wrong here!). The dispensa does not specify through whom she is descended from Moctezuma, but the fact that her name is on a document was a major find. And that is where things seem to stand right now.

Regards
Denise

Edgar,
Hasta donde yo se, no existe documento alguno que soporte la relación de Petronila Moctezuma con los Sotelo. Evidencia a favor esta basada en una linea de tiempo, pero nada mas. Sin embargo, existe evidencia contraria en base a linajes comprobados y documentos (solicitud de beneficios a la Corona) que nunca mencionan a Petronila (busca en los foros de NR información al respecto). Uno de los miembros de NR en algún momento mencionó haber visto la imagen de un documento (me parece referente a la pureza de sangre de la familia de Lope Ruiz de Esparza) donde se mencionaba que Petronila, la madre de su esposa Ana Francisca de Gabay, era nieta del Emperador Moctezuma. La existencia de este documento jamas ha sido demostrada (yo solicite la fuente, pero nunca fue otorgada). En lo particular, yo he eliminado de mi árbol dicha conexión con Moctezuma I por carecer de documentación. Cabe señalar que existieron otras lineas Moctezuma que se aliaron con Cortes para luchar contra su primo Moctezuma II. Esta linea de aliados Tlaxcaltecas eran descendientes de Moctezuma I (Ilhuicamina) y recibieron favores de la Corona al culminar la conquista. Yo me pregunto si la relación que tenemos los descendientes de Petronila es a través de Moctezuma Ilhicamina y no Xocoyotzin, como hemos pensado.

Saludos

Jaime Alvarado

Edgar Olguin Diaz
hola jaimee
garcias por responderme
te lo agradezco mucho
seguiremos buscando
y checare el foro que mencionas
como encuentro dicho foro
y como entro?
gracias
que tengas un buen dia
saludos

Hay dos documentos
Perdona Jaime por que nunca pude encontrar los documentos por que Cerraron la bibliotheca para remodelar por dos Anos y cuando abrieron de Nuevo ya no estaba el documento en el mismo lugar.
Yo vi el documento personalmente por diez minutos antes de cerrar la bibliotheca. Lo estudie hasta que me correaron El documento da la information que a segura que Ella Es bisnieta de Moctezuma.

el segundo documento da hasta mas informacion. este documento nombra a Martin Gabai de Navarro, explicando que Gabai Es el apellido y que el era de Navarro/a este documento nombra Los padres y abuelos de Petronila y dos bisabuelos.
No tengas dudes sober este asunto

Four documents exist that I know of
One State's that she is the great granddaughter of Moctezumaand gives some other information of ruis de Esparza and who are his parents in Spain it states focuses more on ruiz de Esparza, his ancestry and his wife and inlaws and gives a partial line and then jumps and says that she is the great granddaughter of moctezuma

The other document gives the whole arias de sotelo valderrama Leonor line all the way to Moctezuma

A third document that I found explains that leonor de moctezumas mother is the daughter to moctezumas cousin and advisor. His cousin was a very powerful authority in the Aztec empire. this one names leonor, Isabella and a third daughter of Moctezuma

The fourth document is one with the least information is the one showing that Bartolomeu Rodriguez Bajo and his wife are third cousins descendents of petronila Moctezuma. I descend from this couple. this one does not give info on petronilas parents or show any connection to the arias de sotelo or valderrama family

this stuff is not made up. The guy that was sitting next to me reading one of these documents was a well known genealogist that up to that point had insisted that petronila descended from another line that was off base because he had guessed that she descended from Cortez. He was as surprised as I was to read this important information.
The truth is the month before reading this information I had begun to believe that maybe he was right.

What people want are copies of the original documents and where the
originals are located. Otherwise it is hearsay. We can't just use
"somebody said so on a forum"

Some comments on these documents ...

(1) This is apparently the reference in the Jaime Holcomb family group sheet for Lope Ruiz de Esparza: "Documentos proporcionados por el Licenciado Luis Lopez Martinez: Prueba de nobleza y limpieza de sangre hecha por el esposa en Aguascalientes con su ascendcia en Espana varias generacions, Historia familiar y muy escueta genealogia de la esposa - dice que la madre de la esposa fue nieta del ultimo Emperador Azteca, Moctezuma." My attempts to find this have not been successful.

(2) This is apparently well documented. For example, see, AGI, Patronato, 245, R.5." This is a chart made in about 1574 that shows the descent of Fernando de Sotelo Moctezuma and [if I read it correctly} "otros hijos de Diego Arias Sotelo," but does not name them. There are other genealogical charts in the AGI, as well. These call all be downloaded from PARES. I posted the details on how to search PARES a couple of years ago here at NR,

(3) Her mother is Acatlan, described as a "favored secondary wife" of Moctezuma (she is named in the very early genealogical charts in the AGI at PARES). I have a secondary source that names her father as "Cihuatoatl Tlilpotocantzin." "Cihuatoatl" is likely a title. I have no information on him. More information may be available in Amada Lopez de Menezes, "Notas y documentos acera la descendencia de Moteczuma II," HID 1955, 381-410. I believe this journal is actually "Hidalguia," but I am unable to find a copy. Amada Lopez de Menezes has numerous publications on Moctezuma and his family, as well as other historical topics.

(4) This document is a dispensa for Bartolomeu Rodriguez Bajo which has been discussed previously in this forum (and the link provided ... ultimately thanks to Claudia's work in the Guadalajara diocesan records ... see her website for more information). This document is the earliest document that I've seen that actually names Petronila de Moctezuma and Martin Navarro. Her ancestry is not provided there, as it is not relevant for the dispensation.

George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA

This is very true Armando, genealogy is an art and a very dedicated work. I have been spending quite a bit of time correcting errors that others have made in the past. It is okay to have hipothesis based on documents and various pieces of the puzzles, but we must state this. It is not concrete nor should be published till we have found primary sources to establish such connections.
Daniel Méndez de Torres CaminoBrasília - DF - Brasil

Hello George
The first document is in the family history library in West Los Angeles. I did not get this information off of Jaime Holcomb's work though I have copied and stored all of his work that I can find. I do not have that family group sheet in my collection. I actually saw the document in question. I took the afternoon off from work to run to the library for one last feeding to my addiction to genealogy before they closed for remodeling. I did not find the document. I was working on other lines and I had been extremely lucky that day and was trying to squeeze every minute of work in when the gentleman next to me almost had a heart attack because of what he had found. i reluctantly stopped what I was doing and asked him if he was ok he said he was fine and showed me the document. I read it over and over as we ignored the pleas from the staff to get up and leave. they would not allow me to make a copy since they said that it was past closing time And that it would be only a few months before they would reopen. They stayed closed for two years and many things were moved around. I have been unsuccessful in tracking it down but I saw it with my own eyes. the staff says that it must still be there at the library.

The second one was not a chart but named petronila as arias moctezuma or sotelo moctezuma I don't remember which. It did name her as a daughter and named her husband as Martin Gabai from navarre/a

The third document names isabel as daughter of the primary wife and leonor as tha daughter of the secondary wife as you describe but it also states that this wife is the daughter to his cousin, his advisor I don't recall who the mother of the third daughter is.

the last document is provided as you say here at this site. I had only seen the first part of this document when doing my family research and was not aware of the additional documentation explaining that they were actually related until I read it here. I descend from this couple.

Rick

Thanks for the reply. The info about the first document is tantalizing! Hopefully, it will be found one day soon.

What is the second document you refer to? Is it available electronically? The only things I've seen that connects Petronila to the Arias Sotelo family are unsourced internet genealogies. She is not named in the Codex Chimalpahin, but there is reference to five unnamed children of Fernando Sotelo de Moctezuma. There is a recent NR post that quotes "Familias y Casas de la Vieja Valladolid" that gives some of their names, but still leaves out two. I have located a copy in the Bancroft Library at UC Berkeley, but haven't been able to make it there yet.

The three named wives of Moctezuma that I know are Teotlaco (son Axayacatl and daughter Tecuichpochtzin/Isabel), Acatlan (daughters Leonor [aka Mariana/Marina] and Maria), Maria Miahuaxochitl [son Pedro [Tlacahueantzin]). There are number of children by unnamed wives/concubines, some of whom apparently survived the conquest and left descendants. Chimalpahin names several.

George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA

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