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is this website accurate

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By katy_brecht_quesada - Posted on 11 May 2013

i found this website focusing on certain lineages from jerez.
http://jerezzacatecas-salvador.blogspot.com/

i'm not sure how accurate it is though. some parts some accurate like who quitera gamboa's(spouse of pedro chavez) parents are , but this thing claims that miguel caldera had four children when his will said he only had one. it also claims that he and his sister maria are full siblings when there isn't enough evidence to make that claim. mora than likely they are half-sibling since her maiden name was cid.

I can't say if it is accurate or not. Almost all genealogists have made mistakes, not necessarily the one that made the page you are talking about. His name is Salvador Cabral and he used to post here also. He has placed the genealogy on many websites including my favorite - www.geneanet.org

The geneanet page he created on Pedro Caldera and his indian wife is at http://gw5.geneanet.org/salvadorcabral?lang=es;p=pedro;n=caldera+de+velazquez

In the pages on the Calderas he cites books by Thomas Hillerkuss as his source of info the following is also found "Otra de estas ventas la efectuó el capitán Miguel Caldera a don Diego de los Ríos Proaño el 31 de agosto de 1586 de las tierras que habí a entre Trujillo y el puesto de Momax, desde Huejuquilla a la Cienega Grande y desde el Tesorero a Tlaltenango, comprendiéndose el sitio d el Llano , Estancia Vieja o Coyotes, dos sitios arriba de la Cienega , otro al pie de la Sierra de Jomulco , Los Charcos; otro en el ataj o que del Fuerte va a Atitanac: Huejuquilla, Juanes, bajo del pueblo de Susticacán, esta venta la ejecuto como heredo de Pedro Caldera y a nombre de Hernán González y de su hermana María Cid Caldera, mujer del dicho Hernán. El capitán Caldera también vendió los hierros de herrar, con su respectiva concesión y titulo dado a principios de 1536 en la ciudad de Guadalajara, en efigie de dos ese en viceversa apuntala das, es decir punto al final. El registro de este hierro tuvo un costo de 6 pesos."

In Mexico there is no such thing as a maiden name. A woman's surname doesn't change with marriage and especially not before the 20th century.

In old Mexico and in old Spain a person with a different surname than a sibling doesn't mean that they aren't full siblings. One could be using a surname of a maternal grandmother or great grandmother. Therefore, Pedro Caldera and Maria Cid having a different surname has no significance whatsoever until more evidence can be found.

edit: In this case it could, or could not be, a maternal grandmother or great grandmother of Pedro Caldera.

Armando

Much of this insight was given by Primo Arturo Ramos, our Nuestros Ranchos moderator. At a Nueva Galicia Genealogical Society Conference about 3 years in San Jose, Ca, he spoke on:

Matrilineal Naming Practices:
why and how family surnames were used.

There will be some or all of the family children who will use only the mother's surname. This is a common practice when the mother's pedigree comes from a wealthy or influential family. There are also some instances where a child's different surname is chosen from another generation. i.e. a grandfather or grandmother of either the father's or mother's pedigree. It was customary to name some of their children after their grandparents; except that they also included their grandparent’s surnames.

So one family's children's surnames could be 2, 3, or more different surnames. And then those children's grandchildren could revert back to their original surname.

Thanks, Arturo!  

Jose Carlos de Leon

basically you guys are saying that's she could possibly be pedro caldera's child, but there's no way of knowing for sure. it's too bad the blog owner hasn't posted in years. i would like to ask him questions, and give him some more info. for example i have some info(on who his parents were, and msome info on his descendants) on florencio sanchez castelallnos that he doesn't have.

Is Mr. Ramos's presentation in PowerPoint?

-----Original Message-----
From: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.com [mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.com] On Behalf Of josecarlos1944@hotmail.com
Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 11:04 AM
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] multi-linear naming practices

Much of this insight was given by Primo Arturo Ramos, our Nuestros Ranchos moderator. At a Nueva Galicia Genealogical Society Conference about 3 years in San Jose, Ca, he spoke on:

Matrilineal Naming Practices:
why and how family surnames were used.

There will be some or all of the family children who will use only the mother's surname. This is a common practice when the mother's pedigree comes from a wealthy or influential family. There are also some instances where a child's different surname is chosen from another generation. i.e. a grandfather or grandmother of either the father's or mother's pedigree. It was customary to name some of their children after their grandparents; except that they also included their grandparent’s surnames.

So one family's children's surnames could be 2, 3, or more different surnames. And then those children's grandchildren could revert back to their original surname.

Thanks, Arturo!  

Jose Carlos de Leon

Katy,

I am going by what Salvador Cabral has on his Geneanet site which includes notes that the blog does not. In his site at http://gw5.geneanet.org/salvadorcabral?lang=es&p=pedro&n=caldera+de+velazquez there is mention of a sale of land and cattle brands by Miguel Caldera and that he inherited it from Pedro Caldera and that he sold it to Hernán González and his sister María Cid Caldera who was the wife of said Hernán.

Los Charcos; otro en el atajo que del Fuerte va a Atitanac: Huejuquilla, Juanes, bajo del pueblo de Susticacán, esta venta la ejecutó como heredo de Pedro Caldera y a nombre de Hernán González y de su hermana María Cid Caldera, mujer del dicho Hernán. El capitán Caldera también vendió los hierros de herrar, con su respectiva concesión y titulo dado a principios de 1536 en la ciudad de Guadalajara, en efigie de dos ese en viceversa apuntala das, es decir punto al final. El registro de este hierro tuvo un costo de 6 pesos.

Armando

that's interesting how he sold some things that he inherited from his dad to his brother in law. too bad that still doesn't answer the question of if they are full siblings or not. sometimes documents don't specify if two siblings are half or full.

also i thought that maria cid only had one son named pedro. not sure if he's the same one who married ana maria carrillo(if he is, he would have been an old man when he married her).

i do see a few mistakes, for one melchor caldera is listed as a son of pedro caldera on genea net, but his description refers to him as a brother of pedro caldera.

No, it doesn't answer if they are full siblings or not. I was already aware documents don't normally specify if siblings are half or full. The chances that you will find the answer to that are very slim.

Even in the old days men would re-marry all the way until they were in their 60's if their wife died. So the age of the husband of Ana María Carrillo shouldn't be an issue unless he was over 80.

I can't comment on Melchor Caldera. I have no idea if there was more than one or not.

Armando

i'm not sure if it was hist first marriage or not, but i did find a doucment claiming that he had a 'natural' child before he married ana maria carrillo. i wouldn't be surprised if the scribe made an error and that child was actually a legitimate child from a previous marriage.

if the pedro cid who married ana maria carillo, is the same one mentioned in miguel's will, that would place his birth year somewhere in the 1580's or 1590's

Since I don't have this family in my tree or in the tree in any other tree I am investigating I don't have any of this memorized and I can't find mention of one on the Geneanet page. What will are you talking about? Will you provide a link? Do you mean the land sale?

If Pedro Cid, who married Ana María Carrillo, was born about 1585 he would have been 64 when he had his son of the same name in 1649. Men had children even at this age quite often, including my own great-grandfather and a few other ancestors.

The Geneanet pages mentions two dispensas and you mentioned a third in a different thread. Will you post links to the actual documents in this thread? Posting reported trees from the dispensas would be great if you could also do that.

1. Pedro Carlos (de Godoy) Cid y Juana de la Torre. 28 April 1679 Film # 167977 1662-1688
2. Cristobal y Salvadora de Olague 1 feb 1751 Film # 168008 1751
3. ?

Armando

here's the marriage dispensation for valentin varela & matiana ortiz
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18405-8602-36?cc=1874591&wc=12512759

it mentions pedro's daughter francisca

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