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Translation help please....re: Victoriana Martinez

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By PappyRod - Posted on 30 April 2013

My 4th great grandparents' marriage record:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18724-61739-21?cc=1874591&wc=M99L-2NW:n439588508

Juaquin Choperena y Victoriana Martinez were married on 16Sept1801.
I believe Juaquin was born in Navarra, Spain to Pedro Jose Choperena y Maria Bautista Yndart about 1771.

However, I'm having trouble figuring out the birthplace and parents of Victoriana.
Was she born in Spain or Juanacati? Was her father a 16-year old neighbor?

I'd appreciate any help.
Thanks,
Roy

This is how I read this entry:

...con Victoriana Martinez, española de 32 años, natural de la Mesa
del Fraile y vecina de Juanacati[c] diez y seis años ha viuda de
primeras nuncias de D. Pedro Yanos Valdes, cuyo cuerpo esta sepultado
en esta parroquia cinco meses ya.

...with Victoriana Martinez, española (not that she was born in Spain,
but a designation to indicate pureza de sangre and "not Indian or
mixed blood")
of 32 years old, born at Mesa del Fraile (up near Zacatecas, in Mezquitic mcpo)
and neighbor (resident) of Juanactic for 16 years (one of the original
7 haciendas near Totatiche, dating from the 1590's)
widowed of her first church marriage to Don Pedro Yanos Valdes whose
body has been buried in this parish for five months now.

I'm kinda new at reading these old documents, but this is what I got from it.

I'm new to the group, too. Hi!

~Sandra

On 4/30/13, rvr_jr@msn.com wrote:
> My 4th great grandparents' marriage record:
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18724-61739-21?cc=1874591&wc=M99L-2NW:n439588508
>
> Juaquin Choperena y Victoriana Martinez were married on 16Sept1801.
> I believe Juaquin was born in Navarra, Spain to Pedro Jose Choperena y Maria
> Bautista Yndart about 1771.
>
> However, I'm having trouble figuring out the birthplace and parents of
> Victoriana.
> Was she born in Spain or Juanacati? Was her father a 16-year old neighbor?
>
> I'd appreciate any help.
> Thanks,
> Roy

Sandra,
Thanks so much...that will guide me in further research.
Welcome to the Forum - it's a great place!
Saludos,
Roy

Hello Sandra,

The designation of española does not mean pureza de sangre. There were many
people that were labeled español but were of mixed ancestry.

Armando

On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 5:10 PM, Sandra V wrote:

> This is how I read this entry:
>
> ...con Victoriana Martinez, española de 32 años, natural de la Mesa
> del Fraile y vecina de Juanacati[c] diez y seis años ha viuda de
> primeras nuncias de D. Pedro Yanos Valdes, cuyo cuerpo esta sepultado
> en esta parroquia cinco meses ya.
>
> ...with Victoriana Martinez, española (not that she was born in Spain,
> but a designation to indicate pureza de sangre and "not Indian or
> mixed blood")
> of 32 years old, born at Mesa del Fraile (up near Zacatecas, in Mezquitic
> mcpo)
> and neighbor (resident) of Juanactic for 16 years (one of the original
> 7 haciendas near Totatiche, dating from the 1590's)
> widowed of her first church marriage to Don Pedro Yanos Valdes whose
> body has been buried in this parish for five months now.
>
> I'm kinda new at reading these old documents, but this is what I got from
> it.
>
> I'm new to the group, too. Hi!
>
> ~Sandra
>
>
>

Armando, thank you for the clarification. Church records do not necessarily reflect the actual race of the individual being baptized or married.

-----Original Message-----
From: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.com [mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.com] On Behalf Of Armando
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 3:30 PM
To: research@nuestrosranchos.com
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Translation help please....re: Victoriana Martinez

Hello Sandra,

The designation of española does not mean pureza de sangre. There were many people that were labeled español but were of mixed ancestry.

Armando

On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 5:10 PM, Sandra V wrote:

> This is how I read this entry:
>
> ...con Victoriana Martinez, española de 32 años, natural de la Mesa
> del Fraile y vecina de Juanacati[c] diez y seis años ha viuda de
> primeras nuncias de D. Pedro Yanos Valdes, cuyo cuerpo esta sepultado
> en esta parroquia cinco meses ya.
>
> ...with Victoriana Martinez, española (not that she was born in Spain,
> but a designation to indicate pureza de sangre and "not Indian or
> mixed blood") of 32 years old, born at Mesa del Fraile (up near
> Zacatecas, in Mezquitic
> mcpo)
> and neighbor (resident) of Juanactic for 16 years (one of the original
> 7 haciendas near Totatiche, dating from the 1590's) widowed of her
> first church marriage to Don Pedro Yanos Valdes whose body has been
> buried in this parish for five months now.
>
> I'm kinda new at reading these old documents, but this is what I got
> from it.
>
> I'm new to the group, too. Hi!
>
> ~Sandra
>
>
>

I realize that. But my understanding is that the label "español" was
meant or intended to mean that they weren't mixed. Reality of a
given situation notwithstanding, of course :)

On 4/30/13, Armando wrote:
> Hello Sandra,
>
> The designation of española does not mean pureza de sangre. There were many
> people that were labeled español but were of mixed ancestry.
>
> Armando
>
> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 5:10 PM, Sandra V wrote:
>
>> This is how I read this entry:
>>
>> ...con Victoriana Martinez, española de 32 años, natural de la Mesa
>> del Fraile y vecina de Juanacati[c] diez y seis años ha viuda de
>> primeras nuncias de D. Pedro Yanos Valdes, cuyo cuerpo esta sepultado
>> en esta parroquia cinco meses ya.
>>
>> ...with Victoriana Martinez, española (not that she was born in Spain,
>> but a designation to indicate pureza de sangre and "not Indian or
>> mixed blood")
>> of 32 years old, born at Mesa del Fraile (up near Zacatecas, in Mezquitic
>> mcpo)
>> and neighbor (resident) of Juanactic for 16 years (one of the original
>> 7 haciendas near Totatiche, dating from the 1590's)
>> widowed of her first church marriage to Don Pedro Yanos Valdes whose
>> body has been buried in this parish for five months now.
>>
>> I'm kinda new at reading these old documents, but this is what I got from
>> it.
>>
>> I'm new to the group, too. Hi!
>>
>> ~Sandra
>>
>>
>>

I was hoping someone could help me make sense of this.

Why would Jose Leal Cantis appear with Guadlupe Flores to present someone
else's child?

I just learned that my grandmother's US birth certificate was false and I
am trying to locate her correct birth record.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22296-57800-55?cc=1916233&wc=MFDR-5ZS:1025561601,1025602701

I just want to make sure I am not reading this wrong.

Thanks so much for your help.

Stacy

Sorry, I am asking about acta numero 1550.

On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 4:32 PM, Stacy Latocha Newelt wrote:

> I was hoping someone could help me make sense of this.
>
> Why would Jose Leal Cantis appear with Guadlupe Flores to present someone
> else's child?
>
> I just learned that my grandmother's US birth certificate was false and I
> am trying to locate her correct birth record.
>
>
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22296-57800-55?cc=1916233&wc=MFDR-5ZS:1025561601,1025602701
>
> I just want to make sure I am not reading this wrong.
>
> Thanks so much for your help.
>
> Stacy
>

He didn't. The acta states that Jose Leal Cantu was the "Juez del Estado Civil" which literally translates as "Civil Judge" but I have come to interpret over time of reading these as more like a Clerk of Court.

Anyway, in this acta, 28-yr old Guadalupe Flores, originally from Guadalajara, is presenting his legitimate child with his 20-yr old wife Virginia Ovalle, originally from Zacatecas, and they have named her Carmen.

If you'll notice, all of the other registrations also have Jose Leal Cantu's name on them as "Juez del Estado Civil" and he's the one doing the actual recording of the registrations.

Sandra Velez

It says "ante el juez del estado civil José Leal Cantu, compareció
Guadalupe Flores de 28 veinteocho años originario de Guadalajara, Jalisco
vecino de este en el campo ambulante del ferrocarril 4.., y presentó viva a
una niña exponiendo que es hija legitima legitima suya y de su esposa
Virginia Ovalle, de 20 años veinte años, originaria de Zacatecas."

Translation

"In front of the judge of the civil court José Leal Cantu appeared
Guadalupe Flores of 28 years of age originally of Guadalajara, Jalisco
resident of the migrant camp of railroad 4..., and he presented a girl with
life stating that it is his legitimate child and of his wife Virginia
Ovalle of 20 years of age originally of Zacatecas."

As you can see José Leal Cantu was the civil judge that Guadalupe presented
his daughter to.

Armando

On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 3:33 PM, Stacy Latocha Newelt wrote:

> Sorry, I am asking about acta numero 1550.
> ᐧ
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 4:32 PM, Stacy Latocha Newelt >wrote:
>
> > I was hoping someone could help me make sense of this.
> >
> > Why would Jose Leal Cantis appear with Guadlupe Flores to present someone
> > else's child?
> >
> > I just learned that my grandmother's US birth certificate was false and I
> > am trying to locate her correct birth record.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22296-57800-55?cc=1916233&wc=MFDR-5ZS:1025561601,1025602701
> >
> > I just want to make sure I am not reading this wrong.
> >
> > Thanks so much for your help.
> >
> > Stacy
> >

Hi Stacy,

My Spanish isn't that good. But, Jose Leal Cantu doesn't appear to have any connection to the family, he appears to be a government official in the birth records department of Coahuila, Torreón
.
Chris

From: Stacy Latocha Newelt
To: general@nuestrosranchos.com
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2014 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Translation Help

Sorry, I am asking about acta numero 1550.

On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 4:32 PM, Stacy Latocha Newelt wrote:

> I was hoping someone could help me make sense of this.
>
> Why would Jose Leal Cantis appear with Guadlupe Flores to present someone
> else's child?
>
> I just learned that my grandmother's US birth certificate was false and I
> am trying to locate her correct birth record.
>
>
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22296-57800-55?cc=1916233&wc=MFDR-5ZS:1025561601,1025602701
>
> I just want to make sure I am not reading this wrong.
>
> Thanks so much for your help.
>
> Stacy
>

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