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Announce Digest, Vol 77, Issue 5

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By rmromo - Posted on 07 September 2012

This is a late reply to Randy McNeal's message. I too just received a partial results on my Y-DNA testing. I too am surprised at
the conclusions of the test results. Most of my genelogical surnames go back to Northern Spain for about 500 years. The DNA
tests list a whole lot of surnames for Scottish, Irish, English. There are some Dutch, Czech, Polish, Hungarian, Finnish, Icelandic
surnames linked as well. Looking at the geographic migratory history of humans provided in the report provides some understanding
as to how and why there can be a difference. The Northern European surnames are much older than my Hispanic names. Changing of
names, missing genealogical records, clerical errors, the Inquisition, wars, famines, invasions may have played a role in the differences between the DNA records and genealogical records. Just when I thought the puzzle pieces were coming together.
 
By the way Mr. McNeal, I have a "Neal" in my haplogroup, my wife's maiden name is O'Neal. When you get back to the creation period we really are all related.
 
I am purchasing a book on understanding your DNA results. It is definitely needed by me.

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Today's Topics:

  1. DNA results (rmcneal103@msn.com)

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Message: 1
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 16:26:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: rmcneal103@msn.com
To: announce@lists.nuestrosranchos.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] DNA results
Message-ID:
   
   
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

Randy McNeal

I just submitted my DNA test through ancestry.com
I know many haven't been happy with the results from ancestry but from the comments I've read it seems that the reasons people are unhappy is due to not researching how people migrated to different parts of the world. For instance many complain that their ancestors were from England but the test results show more Norwegian ancestry and they claim no family from that area. What they don't know is there were many Scandinavian invasions of what is now Great Britain in the 700's so many in Great Britain have this DNA.
Anyway my too long of point is I don't think it matters where you go you just need to be aware that what comes back may look surprising so you may need to do some additional research to make sense of it.

------------------------------

Below is a brief article that may explain the Scottish, Irish, English showing up in your DNA

Irish origin myths confirmed by modern scientific evidence
One of the oldest texts composed in Ireland is the Leabhar Gabhla, the Book of Invasions. It tells a semi-mythical history of the waves of people who settled in Ireland in earliest time. It says the first settlers to arrive in Ireland were a small dark race called the Fir Bolg, followed by a magical super-race called the Tuatha de Danaan (the people of the goddess Dana).

Most interestingly, the book says that the group which then came to Ireland and fully established itself as rulers of the island were the Milesians - the sons of Mil, the soldier from Spain. Modern DNA research has actually confirmed that the Irish are close genetic relatives of the people of northern Spain.

While it might seem strange that Ireland was populated from Spain rather than Britain or France, it is worth remembering that in ancient times the sea was one of the fastest and easiest ways to travel. When the land was covered in thick forest, coastal settlements were common and people travlleled around the seaboard of Europe quite freely.

The DNA that is in common between the Spanish and the Irish is R1b Y-DNA. This DNA is the most common throughout Western Europe and not just Ireland and Spain. Rolando tested positive for R1b1a2 shorthand R-M269 which from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29#R1b1a2_.28R-M269.29 "The frequency is about 71% in Scotland, 70% in Spain and 60% in France. In south-eastern England the frequency of this clade is about 70%; in parts of the rest of north and western England, Spain, Portugal, Wales and Ireland, it is as high as 90%; and in parts of north-western Ireland it reaches 98%. It is also found in North Africa, where its frequency surpasses 10% in some parts of Algeria.[29]

That means a significant number of people from Scotland, Spain, France, England, Portugal, Wales, and Ireland have common ancestry. Based on calculations of mutation rates the common ancestor lived 9,500 years ago. Based on posts by Dienekes at http://dienekes.blogspot.com/ there were people that populated Western Europe about 5,000 years ago that were farming based bronze age warriors. The Y-DNA R1b was most likely among these groups of farming based bronze age warriors. So the common ancestors of all the people in Scotland, Spain, France, England, Portugal, Wales, and Ireland that have R1b1a2 shorthand R-M269 Y-DNA have a common ancestor between 9,500 and 5,000 years ago.

The myths found in a book written in the 11th century cannot explain what science (anthropology, archaeology, and DNA) shows to have happened about 5,000 years ago. That is 3,000 years before the Roman Empire and 2,500 years before the Classical Greek period.

Saludos,
Armando

From http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/08/proto-indo-european-homeland-in.html

Y-haplogroups J2, and R1 so conspicuously absent from Neolithic Europe down to 5ka (and in the case of J2, completely missing from the record altogether) must have entered Europe at some point. Did they take the fast train into Europe post-5ka, or did they lurk in both Anatolia and Europe pre-5ka? Thanks to the BEAN project we might find out.

The idea that ~5ka something happened in Europe is also supported by the paper:

Despite support for an Anatolian Indo- European origin, we think it unlikely that agriculture serves as the sole driver of language expansion on the continent. The five major Indo-European subfamilies—Celtic, Germanic, Italic, Balto-Slavic, and Indo-Iranian—all emerged as distinct lineages between 4000 and 6000 years ago (Fig. 2 and fig. S1), contemporaneous with a number of later cultural expansions evident in the archaeological record, including the Kurgan expansion (5–7).

Armando

I would highly reccomend reading, The Origins of the British, A Genetic Detective Story by Stephen Oppenheimer.
There is a very interesting chapter which discusses the Celts - the Irish, Scots and Welsh - Stephen Oppenheimer's genetic synthesis shows the majority to have arrived via the Atlantic coastal route from Ice Age refuges including the Basque country; with the modern languages we call Celtic arriving later. Oppenhiemer follows individual genes from samples collected from people living in small, long-established towns, whose grandparents had also lived there rather than whole populations. The geographical distribution of individual gene lines is analysed with respect to their position on a gene tree, to reconstruct their origins, dates and routes of movement.

The book is a fairly easy read and his findings are based on archaeology, anthropology and genetic research.
Oppenheimer is with The Bradshaw Foundation based in Geneva.

Stephen Oppenheimer wrote his book in 2006. There have been a lot of advances in Y-DNA since then. Also in order to say the Irish were direct descendants of Spaniards or Iberians there would have to be SNPs found only in the two areas or ifalso found in other areas there should be proof that where ever the SNPs were found there is proof that all of these people were directly related. According to what I have read about the book Stephen Oppenheimer does not provide that proof. He only makes assumptions or a hypothesis and not a proven scientific theory.

Also, Stephen Oppenheimer used Y-STR data for his assumption. Dienekes shows us Why Y-STR haplotype clusters are not clades http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/10/why-y-str-haplotype-clusters-are-not.html

The following document shows the Y-DNA data that Oppenheimer used - http://www.jogg.info/32/campbell.pdf

In it we can see that at the time Oppenheimer wrote his book they used haplogroups descriptors of a maximum of 7 characters. If you look those up in ysearch.org you will see that they are now using the 12 character subclade descriptor of R1b1a2a1a1b4 shorthand L21. You can see a list of people that tested positive for L21 at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

According to a post at the following site http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?25404-The-Origin-of-L21 this subclade first arose in Germany or France.

Per Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29 Myres et al. report it is most common in England and Ireland (25-50% of the whole
male population).[7]

You can see a map of the distribution of L21 at http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#L21

According the the following table it

According to the table found at http://www.iberianroots.com/statistics/spain.html there are only 22 out of 2,473 Spaniards that tested positive for L21. If they were the ancestors of the Irish they should have a higher percentage of people that test positive for this.

Using all of the previous data we know the assumption or hypothesis that Stephen Oppenheimer came up with is not very likely. I would recommend against reading his book. I would recommend keeping up with Dienekes blog that includes links to the scientific studies he comments on. I would also suggest getting Deep Clade tests when getting Y-DNA tests. The new Genographic project will also test for SNPs. https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/

Armando

Armando, thanks for your assessment, I have been looking for updated information on Oppenheimer's theory, in a form that isn't written for geneticists (which is what attracted me to his studies to begin with.)

Even though I will have to print your message and get my DNA cheat sheet out to figure out what you said, I did get the message that DNA testing has come a long way since Oppenheimer wrote his book and that his theory hasn't held up over the years.

Thanks Randy and Armando - Your leads, advice, info have been extremely helpful. The more that I learn the more I realize how much further I need to study. I am going to acquire Oppenheimer's book, even if it is outdated. I am obtaining books on DNA in order to understand the terminology.

I hope to pursue more DNA testing in the future but I am still working on understanding what has already been revealed.

Rolando Romo

Rolando,

Your money would have been better spent on a Deep Clade test. That way you could know where you fall on the on R1b tree and you could also join a project belonging to that subclade.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#R1b-subclades

Oppenheimer's book will only cause confusion.

As far as all of the people that you have 12 marker matches with. All that is known by scientists is that there was a change from Neolothic hunter-gatherers to Bronze age farmers about 5,000 years ago and that there is no evidence of R1 prior to 5,000 years ago. Therefore the R1 haplogroups were most likely the ones that took farming and bronze age weapons to all of Western Europe, including Spain, Ireland, Scandinavia, France, Grmany, etc. These are our ancestors and the ancestors of the people you have a match with. A Deep Clade test will narrow the the number people you are related to.

Armando

Randy,

You should also get a Y-DNA test from FamilyTreeDNA and then a Deep Clade test so you can see first hand with your own DNA what is going on.

The autosomal DNA tests from Ancestry.com, 23andme, and FamilytreeDNA are very generalized and include naming a certain groups that isn't proven. If they had autosomal DNA from skeletons from every one hundred years going back 5,000 years or more in multiple areas and had autosomal DNA that was specific to a certain area then they could use the naming that they have. But they don't have that. Therefore, it is all conjecture for the names of the nationalities that they use. At least 23andme allows people to see the DNA that is matched with others. If you are going to get an autosomal test they are the best to go with. However, it seems the new Genographic 2.0 test will encompass Y-DNA, mt-DNA and autosomal. I would like to see a comparison of their results against the other testing.

Armando

Armando, I am looking at also getting the National Geographic test, because of your past postings on this subject for that very reason.

My main interest in the Basque Celt DNA is I am affraid my results may come back very confusing because of my Celt and Spanish ancestry.

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