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Roy Rodriguez, Jr. (a.k.a. Uncle Relic) - new member introduction & "For Greater Glory"

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By PappyRod - Posted on 28 June 2012

It's only by fate that I find myself at Nuestros Ranchos.
I took my wife to see "For Greater Glory" and came home to start researching the period. Among the numerous websites that came up on Google was NR and I was hooked.

I've been researching my maternal family (Italian) for over ten years but never had much information on my paternal side.

My paternal grandmother Dolores Villasenor was never married to the man that fathered my father. She left my father with his grandmother Martina Perez in 1924 and came to the U.S. to start a new life. She went back to Totatiche for my father in 1931. My father was raised as Rogaciano Villasenor and took the name Roy Villasenor Rodriguez when he was naturalized as a U.S. citizen during WWII. Rodriguez was the name of the man who eventually married my grandmother. My father spoke very little of the War and of his childhood in Mexico. One thing he did tell me was that we had both Spanish and Indian blood in our genes.

Time has taken it's toll on my memory, but I think my grandmother once told me that my grandfather was killed in the revolution. It was this vague memory that got me curious about this man my father never knew.

So, about three weeks ago, I went to FamilySearch and started looking. I immediately found my father as well as his older brother and sister - both listed as father unknown. Fortunately, my father's father was listed - Jesus del Real from Tlaltenango de Sanchez Roman, Zacatecasas. At last..my family lineage is clear! Now to find out what really happened to Jesus. I can not find his death record to document his death during the Christeros.

I've been going through Jalisco records day and night ever since and have gotten a great start to my tree, going back to my 4x Great Grandparents about 1770-1790.

Please visit my folder:

http://www.nuestrosranchos.com/en/UncleRelic

Regrettably, I do not speak Spanish as my father did not want to teach us. He studied very hard to learn English. He was very proud of his WWII service, loved his adopted country, and wanted to assimilate into American life.

With great anticipation, I seek to communicate with any relatives.

Regarding the movie: It was very enjoyable to watch, provided a somewhat accurate depiction of events, but more importantly it got me to do my own research.

Best regards to all,
Roy

Hello Roy,
I did find the marriage date which you did not have in your family tree.
This is for Bernardo del Real and Maria Isabel Caballero; they were married
20 August 1883, in Tlaltenango de Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas. I didn't put a
lot of attention so I don't know if you have all of Jesus de Real Siblings,
so just in case I found Maria Refugio del Real, 1884, and another Maria del
Refugio del Real in 1886--so I think maybe the first one died and chose the
same name for the next one. There is also Ygnacio del Real born 21
November 1888 and they were from Tlaltenango as well.

Hope it helped?
Esther Jordan Lopez

On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 10:09 AM, wrote:

> It's only by fate that I find myself at Nuestros Ranchos.
> I took my wife to see "For Greater Glory" and came home to start
> researching the period. Among the numerous websites that came up on Google
> was NR and I was hooked.
>
> I've been researching my maternal family (Italian) for over ten years but
> never had much information on my paternal side.
>
> My paternal grandmother Dolores Villasenor was never married to the man
> that fathered my father. She left my father with his grandmother Martina
> Perez in 1924 and came to the U.S. to start a new life. She went back to
> Totatiche for my father in 1931. My father was raised as Rogaciano
> Villasenor and took the name Roy Villasenor Rodriguez when he was
> naturalized as a U.S. citizen during WWII. Rodriguez was the name of the
> man who eventually married my grandmother. My father spoke very little of
> the War and of his childhood in Mexico. One thing he did tell me was that
> we had both Spanish and Indian blood in our genes.
>
> Time has taken it's toll on my memory, but I think my grandmother once
> told me that my grandfather was killed in the revolution. It was this
> vague memory that got me curious about this man my father never knew.
>
> So, about three weeks ago, I went to FamilySearch and started looking. I
> immediately found my father as well as his older brother and sister - both
> listed as father unknown. Fortunately, my father's father was listed -
> Jesus del Real from Tlaltenango de Sanchez Roman, Zacatecasas. At
> last..my family lineage is clear! Now to find out what really happened to
> Jesus. I can not find his death record to document his death during the
> Christeros.
>
> I've been going through Jalisco records day and night ever since and have
> gotten a great start to my tree, going back to my 4x Great Grandparents
> about 1770-1790.
>
> Please visit my folder:
>
> http://www.nuestrosranchos.**com/en/UncleRelic
>
> Regrettably, I do not speak Spanish as my father did not want to teach us.
> He studied very hard to learn English. He was very proud of his WWII
> service, loved his adopted country, and wanted to assimilate into American
> life.
>
> With great anticipation, I seek to communicate with any relatives.
>
> Regarding the movie: It was very enjoyable to watch, provided a somewhat
> accurate depiction of events, but more importantly it got me to do my own
> research.
>
> Best regards to all,
> Roy
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hi Roy,

welcome and thanks for sharing your story. This is a wonderful and diligent online community. I'm sure you will find a connection.... It's been really helpful for me as I've found a few distant relatives and have come across alot of new information. It's really exciting so get ready for a few surprises. Best of luck in your research. I'll keep my eyes open for you as well.

Regards,
Pauline

Esther,
Thank you for the quick posting.
I did have the 1886 birth of Maria Refugio, but not the 1884 birth.
The marriage date of Bernardo Isabel has been updated.
With this new 1884 birth, I now have 10 offspring of this marriage.

There is also a third Maria Refugio del Real listed as the first registered birth in 1909:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22152-18318-9?cc=1916240&wc=11898837

On this record, Bernardo is listed as Don Bernardo...what does that signify?

Roy

There are a few definitions to that. I have a lot of Don and Donas in my
ancestors as well. I know that sometimes it is a title and with my family
I think it may have been land/cattle owners or other type of nobility. Ask
Armando. I'm sure he or other experts can help you with that.
Esther

On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 6:18 PM, wrote:

> Esther,
> Thank you for the quick posting.
> I did have the 1886 birth of Maria Refugio, but not the 1884 birth.
> The marriage date of Bernardo Isabel has been updated. With this new 1884
> birth, I now have 10 offspring of this marriage.
>
> There is also a third Maria Refugio del Real listed as the first
> registered birth in 1909:
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/**MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22152-18318-9?**
> cc=1916240&wc=11898837
>
> On this record, Bernardo is listed as Don Bernardo...what does that
> signify?
>
> Roy

I have found people in my records who were recorded as very poor at their burials but were called Don and Dona so I have to think it was a sign of respect as well as for people with money.  My Castanon grandparents and gr-grandparents were always referred to as Don and Dona and they had no money but lots of respect.. just my 2 cents worth.

________________________________
From: Esther Jordan
To: announce@nuestrosranchos.com
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 11:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Roy Rodriguez, Jr.

There are a few definitions to that.  I have a lot of Don and Donas in my
ancestors as well.  I know that sometimes it is a title and with my family
I think it may have been land/cattle owners or other type of nobility.  Ask
Armando.  I'm sure he or other experts can help you with that.
Esther

On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 6:18 PM, wrote:

> Esther,
> Thank you for the quick posting.
> I did have the 1886 birth of Maria Refugio, but not the 1884 birth.
> The marriage date of Bernardo Isabel has been updated.  With this new 1884
> birth, I now have 10 offspring of this marriage.
>
> There is also a third Maria Refugio del Real listed as the first
> registered birth in 1909:
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/**MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22152-18318-9?**
> cc=1916240&wc=11898837
>
> On this record, Bernardo is listed as Don Bernardo...what does that
> signify?
>
> Roy

That is correct, Don and Doña are terms of respect regardless of money,
race, or nobility. There are indios who were given the respect of being
called Don and as Erlinda stated there were also poor people called Don. In
both cases it was mostly because of who they were related to which gave
them that place in society to be given respect. Of course the rich were
always given the term Don unambiguously in all the records, which would be
what Esther was referring to, for others the term would be applied
ambiguously. Keep in mind that the use of the term has changed over the
centuries and at one time was only reserved for true nobles and now at
times is used for older people regardless of what their economic or social
status is or was.

As far as the etymology goes the Real Academia Española
http://rae.es/rae.html shows it comes from the Latin word domĭnus. The
following pages have more information on it's history.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0062:entry=dominus-harpers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominus_%28title%29

Saludos,
Armando

On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Erlinda Castanon-Long <
longsjourney@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I have found people in my records who were recorded as very poor at their
> burials but were called Don and Dona so I have to think it was a sign of
> respect as well as for people with money. My Castanon grandparents and
> gr-grandparents were always referred to as Don and Dona and they had no
> money but lots of respect.. just my 2 cents worth.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Esther Jordan
> To: announce@nuestrosranchos.com
> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 11:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Roy Rodriguez, Jr.
>
> There are a few definitions to that. I have a lot of Don and Donas in my
> ancestors as well. I know that sometimes it is a title and with my family
> I think it may have been land/cattle owners or other type of nobility. Ask
> Armando. I'm sure he or other experts can help you with that.
> Esther
>
> On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 6:18 PM, wrote:
>
> > Esther,
> > Thank you for the quick posting.
> > I did have the 1886 birth of Maria Refugio, but not the 1884 birth.
> > The marriage date of Bernardo Isabel has been updated. With this new
> 1884
> > birth, I now have 10 offspring of this marriage.
> >
> > There is also a third Maria Refugio del Real listed as the first
> > registered birth in 1909:
> >
> > https://familysearch.org/pal:/**MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22152-18318-9?**
> > cc=1916240&wc=11898837<
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22152-18318-9?cc=1916240&wc=11898837
> >
> >
> > On this record, Bernardo is listed as Don Bernardo...what does that
> > signify?
> >
> > Roy
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Announce Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > announce(at)NuestrosRanchos.**com
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.NuestrosRanchos.com
> >

Thank you Armando...I try to learn something new everyday.
Roy

Armando,

I'm just curious....Do you have a sense of when the titles shifted from a
title of nobility to either a title or honorific? Perhaps its use became
more egalitarian in Mexico than in Spain? Just wondering.

Saludos,
Raquel

Hello Raquel,

The use for older people regardless of economic or social status seems to
have begun in the 20th century in Mexico. It is actually used sparingly in
Spain, so yes in the 20th century it became more egalitarian in Mexico
than in Spain. Prior to the 20th century it used more often but only for
certain classes of people in Spain. The use for non-nobles is ambiguous in
Mexico but it's use in Nueva Galicia was used mainly for people of high
regard.

Saludos,
Armando

On Sat, Jun 30, 2012 at 8:43 AM, Raquel Ruiz wrote:

> Armando,
>
> I'm just curious....Do you have a sense of when the titles shifted from a
> title of nobility to either a title or honorific? Perhaps its use became
> more egalitarian in Mexico than in Spain? Just wondering.
>
> Saludos,
> Raquel

Roy,

You mentioned differences in usage of words in Spain vs Mexico in addressing people.

There is one other thing that I was aware of growing up with a Native American mother from New Mexico and a Basque-mestizo-mulato father from Zacatecas. He would scold us if we said, "Que?". He insisted we say "mande usted", but my mother refused to do that. She would say "nadie me manda". She would say "como?" or "que?". I noticed in Spain they don't use that term, "mande", and since the New Mexico "manitos" used an old Spanish dialect and were isolated for so long from the centers in Mexico, if that is the reason.

In our Spanish class in school, we learned to say "Como?" or "perdon?", not "Mande", and I noticed in Spain they used the term "Como?" or "diga?".

I also had a maid that insisted on calling me Dona Emilia when I told her to call me Emilia. She could have called me "senora". I felt uncomfortable with the "dona", but then I wondered if she was being sarcastic.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 14:45:38 -0500
> From: fandemma@gmail.com
> To: announce@nuestrosranchos.com
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Roy Rodriguez, Jr.
>
> Hello Raquel,
>
> The use for older people regardless of economic or social status seems to
> have begun in the 20th century in Mexico. It is actually used sparingly in
> Spain, so yes in the 20th century it became more egalitarian in Mexico
> than in Spain. Prior to the 20th century it used more often but only for
> certain classes of people in Spain. The use for non-nobles is ambiguous in
> Mexico but it's use in Nueva Galicia was used mainly for people of high
> regard.
>
> Saludos,
> Armando
>
> On Sat, Jun 30, 2012 at 8:43 AM, Raquel Ruiz wrote:
>
> > Armando,
> >
> > I'm just curious....Do you have a sense of when the titles shifted from a
> > title of nobility to either a title or honorific? Perhaps its use became
> > more egalitarian in Mexico than in Spain? Just wondering.
> >
> > Saludos,
> > Raquel
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Announce Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > announce(at)NuestrosRanchos.com
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.NuestrosRanchos.com
> >

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