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By abram101 - Posted on 01 April 2012

I cant quite figure out what the last name of Cenon's Grandmothers from both sides all i can read is Maria Magdelena.....???and for the other grandmother Ana maria...??? please help.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15092-1073-99?cc=1410092&wc=6835015

Jose Cenon Munoz Duran is the one being baptized his parents are Jose Antonio Munoz and Rosalia Duran

It's Ysidro Muños and Maria Magdalena Bermejo and Ana Maria Soria.

Alicia,
San Jose, ca

________________________________
From: "aflore2855@gmail.com"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.com
Sent: Sunday, April 1, 2012 7:40 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Need help in reading this document please help.

I cant quite figure out what the last name of Cenon's Grandmothers from both sides all i can read is Maria Magdelena.....???and for the other grandmother Ana maria...??? please help.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15092-1073-99?cc=1410092&wc=6835015

Jose Cenon Munoz Duran is the one being baptized his parents are Jose Antonio Munoz and Rosalia Duran

Magdalena uses the compound surname Gonzales Bermejo in the baptism of her
son Joseph Ruphino -
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JMPS-VBD

That might help you find more on them. There are several people with the
surname Gonzales Bermejo that show up in Zacatecas in familysearch. There
are two that show up as Gonzales Bermejo in Guadalajaradispensas.com

Armando

Armando,

Thanks for that tip it really helped alot.I had a question the only info so far iv'e found of Magdalenas was her son Joseph Ruphino i can't really find anything else.I completley dislike how in the earlier baptims records the grandfathers and grandmothers weren't really said only the parents and the padrinos.

There is nothing that can be done about the grandparents not being named in
records prior to 1800. Sometimes you have to use records of siblings,
descendants, informaciones matrimoniales, and dispensas together to
determine the grandparents. That's the way it is for most of us.

There are more baptisms of the children of Isidro Muñoz and Magdalena
González Bermejo (Ruiz de Esparza). Set the search to any in Mexico
1750-1800 with the father as Isidro Munoz and the mother as Magdalena.
Don't use a surname for Magdalena and you will she was mentioned once as
Maria Magdalena de Esparsa, another time her surname wasn't recorded,
another time the surname was transcribed incorrectly as Bermefo.

I also tried the father without a surname and there are a few baptisms with
Isidro Duran and Magdalena Esparza as the parents. They married 29 Jul 1752
and might be the same as Isidro Munoz and Magdalena Gonzalez. This is a
link to the marriage.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15185-43110-81?cc=1410092&wc=6835673

You should also look for the información matrimonial apart from all of the
baptisms to see what you can find. The link to the volume for the
información matrimonial is
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15192-13468-86?cc=1410092&wc=6835216

The marriage record for Magdalena Esparza states she was from Asientos
[Aguascalientes]. You should also look at the volumes of información
matrimonial located there since there can be record there as well as in
Nochistlán.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15192-13468-86?cc=1410092&wc=6835216

Armando

On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 10:59 PM, wrote:

> Armando,
>
> Thanks for that tip it really helped alot.I had a question the only info
> so far iv'e found of Magdalenas was her son Joseph Ruphino i can't really
> find anything else.I completley dislike how in the earlier baptims records
> the grandfathers and grandmothers weren't really said only the parents and
> the padrinos.

Armando and Abram,

I've done some work on the Munos/Gonzalez Bermejo lines and I have Joseph
Munos married to Magdalena Gonzalez Bermejo on January 15, 1755:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15185-42993-54?cc=1410092&wc=6835673

I believe this is Ysidro and welcome any feedback on this link.

I look forward to your response.

Regards,
Juan Aguayo

On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 12:14 AM, Armando wrote:

> There is nothing that can be done about the grandparents not being named in
> records prior to 1800. Sometimes you have to use records of siblings,
> descendants, informaciones matrimoniales, and dispensas together to
> determine the grandparents. That's the way it is for most of us.
>
> There are more baptisms of the children of Isidro Muñoz and Magdalena
> González Bermejo (Ruiz de Esparza). Set the search to any in Mexico
> 1750-1800 with the father as Isidro Munoz and the mother as Magdalena.
> Don't use a surname for Magdalena and you will she was mentioned once as
> Maria Magdalena de Esparsa, another time her surname wasn't recorded,
> another time the surname was transcribed incorrectly as Bermefo.
>
> I also tried the father without a surname and there are a few baptisms with
> Isidro Duran and Magdalena Esparza as the parents. They married 29 Jul 1752
> and might be the same as Isidro Munoz and Magdalena Gonzalez. This is a
> link to the marriage.
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15185-43110-81?cc=1410092&wc=6835673
>
> You should also look for the información matrimonial apart from all of the
> baptisms to see what you can find. The link to the volume for the
> información matrimonial is
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15192-13468-86?cc=1410092&wc=6835216
>
> The marriage record for Magdalena Esparza states she was from Asientos
> [Aguascalientes]. You should also look at the volumes of información
> matrimonial located there since there can be record there as well as in
> Nochistlán.
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15192-13468-86?cc=1410092&wc=6835216
>
> Armando
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 10:59 PM, wrote:
>
> > Armando,
> >
> > Thanks for that tip it really helped alot.I had a question the only info
> > so far iv'e found of Magdalenas was her son Joseph Ruphino i can't really
> > find anything else.I completley dislike how in the earlier baptims
> records
> > the grandfathers and grandmothers weren't really said only the parents
> and
> > the padrinos.
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)NuestrosRanchos.**com
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.NuestrosRanchos.com
> >

Abram,

Rosalia Duran has been very illusive for me. I believe she may actually be
Rosalia Aguirre. Does anyone have information that could help solve this
mystery? I have two marriage certificates for Jose Antonio Munoz and Maria
Rosalia Aguirre dated February 9, 1785, one found in Informacion
Matrimonial link of Nochistlan and the other in the Matrimonios link.

I've never been able to find a document containing Maria Rosailia's parents
with the Duran last name. Can anyone shed some light on Maria Rosalia?

As far as Cenon's grandmonthers I read Ana Maria Sorca. As for Maria
Magdalena, Armando is correct. Maria Magdalena does have a compound last
name of Gonzalez Bermejo. Her parents are Joseph Gonzalez Bermejo and
Gertrudis de Chaves.

Armando,

Thanks for the heads up on the dispensas for Gonzalez Bermejo. I'll have to
look into that.

Regards,
Juan Aguayo

On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 11:18 PM, Armando wrote:

> Magdalena uses the compound surname Gonzales Bermejo in the baptism of her
> son Joseph Ruphino -
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JMPS-VBD
>
> That might help you find more on them. There are several people with the
> surname Gonzales Bermejo that show up in Zacatecas in familysearch. There
> are two that show up as Gonzales Bermejo in Guadalajaradispensas.com
>
> Armando

Juan, it's a good thing you caught this quickly. I didn't pay close enough
attention that Isidro Duran is Isidro Andrés and Isidro Muñoz is Isidro
Joseph and the marriage you found is for [Isidro] Joseph Muñoz which is who
Abram is looking for.

Saludos
Armando

On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 1:27 AM, Juan Aguayo wrote:

> Armando and Abram,
>
> I've done some work on the Munos/Gonzalez Bermejo lines and I have Joseph
> Munos married to Magdalena Gonzalez Bermejo on January 15, 1755:
>
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15185-42993-54?cc=1410092&wc=6835673
>
> I believe this is Ysidro and welcome any feedback on this link.
>
> I look forward to your response.
>
> Regards,
> Juan Aguayo
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 12:14 AM, Armando wrote:
>
> > There is nothing that can be done about the grandparents not being named
> in
> > records prior to 1800. Sometimes you have to use records of siblings,
> > descendants, informaciones matrimoniales, and dispensas together to
> > determine the grandparents. That's the way it is for most of us.
> >
> > There are more baptisms of the children of Isidro Muñoz and Magdalena
> > González Bermejo (Ruiz de Esparza). Set the search to any in Mexico
> > 1750-1800 with the father as Isidro Munoz and the mother as Magdalena.
> > Don't use a surname for Magdalena and you will she was mentioned once as
> > Maria Magdalena de Esparsa, another time her surname wasn't recorded,
> > another time the surname was transcribed incorrectly as Bermefo.
> >
> > I also tried the father without a surname and there are a few baptisms
> with
> > Isidro Duran and Magdalena Esparza as the parents. They married 29 Jul
> 1752
> > and might be the same as Isidro Munoz and Magdalena Gonzalez. This is a
> > link to the marriage.
> >
> >
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15185-43110-81?cc=1410092&wc=6835673
> >
> > You should also look for the información matrimonial apart from all of
> the
> > baptisms to see what you can find. The link to the volume for the
> > información matrimonial is
> >
> >
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15192-13468-86?cc=1410092&wc=6835216
> >
> > The marriage record for Magdalena Esparza states she was from Asientos
> > [Aguascalientes]. You should also look at the volumes of información
> > matrimonial located there since there can be record there as well as in
> > Nochistlán.
> >
> >
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15192-13468-86?cc=1410092&wc=6835216
> >
> > Armando
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 10:59 PM, wrote:
> >
> > > Armando,
> > >
> > > Thanks for that tip it really helped alot.I had a question the only
> info
> > > so far iv'e found of Magdalenas was her son Joseph Ruphino i can't
> really
> > > find anything else.I completley dislike how in the earlier baptims
> > records
> > > the grandfathers and grandmothers weren't really said only the parents
> > and
> > > the padrinos.
> > > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> > >
> > > To post, send email to:
> > > research(at)NuestrosRanchos.**com
> > >
> > > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > > http://www.NuestrosRanchos.com
> > >
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)NuestrosRanchos.com
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.NuestrosRanchos.com
> >

Juan,

There is a marriage for Joseph Gonzalez Bermejo and Gertrudis de Chaves but
it is on **15 August 1748 which would have been too late to be Madgalena
parents. However it states that she was a widow of Manuel González Bermejo
which leads me to believe he was the father of Magdalena and not Joseph.
Manuel and Gertrudis had children in San Felipe, Guanajuato which is on the
border of Jalisco. Here is a link to the marriage in case you or Abram want
to see it -
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-19052-56576-48?cc=1874591&wc=12510891If
you or someone else has the información matrimonial I am interested in
getting that link.

Gertrudis shows to be the daughter of Alejandro de Chávez [Fragoso] and
Paula de Rivas.

There is an old post by Daniel Mendez del Camino that states the following:

"*Ten[g]o una dispensa que menciona a Marcelino Luziano de Villanueva y
Maria Leocadia*
*de Chavez Fragoso en dicha dispensa menciona que es hija de Alejandro de
Chavez Fragoso
y Paula de Rivas y que Maria Leocadia era natural de San Felipe (Gto.) en
el Obispado de Michoacan.
Me recuerdo de esto pero no se cual dispensa necesito revisarlo de nuevo,
permite algunos dias**
para buscarlo. *

*Estos ultimos son mis antepasados Jose Antonio de Chavez Fragoso casado con
Maria de los Dolores de Colunga Cortes, natural de Villa de Reyes (SLP.).
La razon porque Maria
Leocadia era mencionada es que era testiga ya que una de sus hermanas Maria
Gertrudis de
Chavez Fragoso caso a dos Gonzalez-Bermejo, los dos eran primos primer
nupcias con
Juan Manuel Gonzalez Bermejo hijo de Juan Gonzalez de Bermejo y Gertrudis
Lopez de Nava
y segunda nupcias con dispensa por ser primo de su esposo
Jose Gonzalez Bermejo hijo de Diego Gonzalez Bermejo y Andrea Lopez de Nava*
."

"http://www.nuestrosranchos.com/en/node/19122

He also stated the following:

"*My Antonio Chaves y Fragoso married all the way in San Luis Potosi and
settled in Aguas, he was son of Alejandro Chaves Fragoso, son of Diego
Chaves y Fragoso, son of Pedro Chaves y Fragoso son of the patriarch and
matriarch, Leonardo Fragoso and Ana de Chaves. They owned much land in
Teocaltiche.*"

http://www.nuestrosranchos.com/en/node/17966?page=3

If this is the same Diego Chaves y Fragoso I think it is then he married
Antonia de Villalobos on 25 Feb 1664 in Aguascalientes

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-12446-30300-45?cc=1410092&wc=6810679

Antonia was the daughter of Francisco de Villalobos y Pérez and María de
Torres alias María Vásquez de Retamosa alias María Macías Valadez.
Francisco de Villalobos was the son of Cristóbal de Villalobos and María
Pérez de Nava.

Let me know what you think of all of this.

Saludos,
Armando

On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 1:36 AM, Juan Aguayo wrote:

> Abram,
>
>
>
> Rosalia Duran has been very illusive for me. I believe she may actually be
> Rosalia Aguirre. Does anyone have information that could help solve this
> mystery? I have two marriage certificates for Jose Antonio Munoz and Maria
> Rosalia Aguirre dated February 9, 1785, one found in Informacion
> Matrimonial link of Nochistlan and the other in the Matrimonios link.
>
>
> I've never been able to find a document containing Maria Rosailia's parents
> with the Duran last name. Can anyone shed some light on Maria Rosalia?
>
>
>
> As far as Cenon's grandmonthers I read Ana Maria Sorca. As for Maria
> Magdalena, Armando is correct. Maria Magdalena does have a compound last
> name of Gonzalez Bermejo. Her parents are Joseph Gonzalez Bermejo and
> Gertrudis de Chaves.
>
>
>
> Armando,
>
>
> Thanks for the heads up on the dispensas for Gonzalez Bermejo. I'll have to
> look into that.
>
> Regards,
> Juan Aguayo
>
> On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 11:18 PM, Armando wrote:
>
> > Magdalena uses the compound surname Gonzales Bermejo in the baptism of
> her
> > son Joseph Ruphino -
> > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JMPS-VBD
> >
> > That might help you find more on them. There are several people with the
> > surname Gonzales Bermejo that show up in Zacatecas in familysearch. There
> > are two that show up as Gonzales Bermejo in Guadalajaradispensas.com
> >
> > Armando
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)NuestrosRanchos.com
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.NuestrosRanchos.com
> >

Armando,

Correct me if im wrong Armando.Ysidro Joseph Munos Married Maria Magdalena Bermejo.Maria Magdalenas parents are Joseph Gonzalez-Bermejo and Gertrudis De Chaves.Joseph parents are Diego Gonzalez-Bermejo and Andrea Lopes.Gertrudis parents are Alexandro De Chaves and Puala Rivas??

Abram

Since Magdalena married in 1755 it is impossible for her to have been born
after the marriage of Joseph González Bermejo and Gertrudis Chávez Fragoso
which took place on **15 August 1748 in Teocaltiche, Jalisco. Therefore it
is my belief there was an error that Joseph was her father and it reality
it was Manuel,the first husband of Gertrudis Chávez Fragoso who was a
cousin of Joseph.

Armando

On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 8:31 PM, wrote:

> Armando,
>
> Correct me if im wrong Armando.Ysidro Joseph Munos Married Maria Magdalena
> Bermejo.Maria Magdalenas parents are Joseph Gonzalez-Bermejo and Gertrudis
> De Chaves.Joseph parents are Diego Gonzalez-Bermejo and Andrea
> Lopes.Gertrudis parents are Alexandro De Chaves and Puala Rivas??
>
>
> Abram
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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