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Assistance with terminology

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By gpf13 - Posted on 17 March 2012

I have seen several death records from Asientos in the mid 1790s with a clause similar to "se entierro menor en fabrica de quatro pesos seis reales".

Other records are annotated "limosna," which I assume means the person was poor, and was buried without a donation or payment to the Church.

When I try a computer translation of this clause (such as with google), the result makes no sense.

Is this amount a donation, or is this what it cost to be buried by the Church.

George Fulton

something I have found in some older burial records is a time limit of 5 years. Does that simply mean they can bury another person in that grave after 5 years? I was told in Jerez, Zac that in the old days more than one person could be buried in the same grave. The older bones were put to the foot of the grave.  Did this happen anywhere else other than Jerez?
Linda in Everett

________________________________
From: "gpf13@aol.com"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.com
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 10:40 AM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Assistance with terminology

I have seen several death records from Asientos in the mid 1790s with a clause similar to "se entierro menor en fabrica de quatro pesos seis reales".

Other records are annotated "limosna," which I assume means the person was poor, and was buried without a donation or payment to the Church.

When I try a computer translation of this clause (such as with google), the result makes no sense.

Is this amount a donation, or is this what it cost to be buried by the Church.

George Fulton

George,

The phrase "entierro menor" denotes a type of liturgy or rite associated with a church burial. The word "fabrica" [accent on 'a'] refers to a church building fund. The rest of the phrase refers to the money of the day. Could "se" be the word "de"?, if not then the "se" doesn't make sense syntactically. All the clergy I have met over the years resist the notion of "charging" for the 'services' they provide. The phrase you noted is more of a personal note than sentence.

David Delgado
Albany, CA

-----Original Message-----
>From: gpf13@aol.com
>Sent: Mar 17, 2012 10:40 AM
>To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.com
>Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Assistance with terminology
>
>I have seen several death records from Asientos in the mid 1790s with a clause similar to "se entierro menor en fabrica de quatro pesos seis reales".
>
>Other records are annotated "limosna," which I assume means the person was poor, and was buried without a donation or payment to the Church.
>
>When I try a computer translation of this clause (such as with google), the result makes no sense.
>
>Is this amount a donation, or is this what it cost to be buried by the Church.
>
>George Fulton

I always thought "de limosna" meant that the sacrament was given "out of charity" or alms for the poor. I think the rich people always gave donations, but the poor people couldn't.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA

> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 13:40:33 -0700
> From: dpdelgado@jps.net
> To: research@NuestrosRanchos.com
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Assistance with terminology
>
> George,
>
> The phrase "entierro menor" denotes a type of liturgy or rite associated with a church burial. The word "fabrica" [accent on 'a'] refers to a church building fund. The rest of the phrase refers to the money of the day. Could "se" be the word "de"?, if not then the "se" doesn't make sense syntactically. All the clergy I have met over the years resist the notion of "charging" for the 'services' they provide. The phrase you noted is more of a personal note than sentence.
>
> David Delgado
> Albany, CA
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: gpf13@aol.com
> >Sent: Mar 17, 2012 10:40 AM
> >To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.com
> >Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Assistance with terminology
> >
> >I have seen several death records from Asientos in the mid 1790s with a clause similar to "se entierro menor en fabrica de quatro pesos seis reales".
> >
> >Other records are annotated "limosna," which I assume means the person was poor, and was buried without a donation or payment to the Church.
> >
> >When I try a computer translation of this clause (such as with google), the result makes no sense.
> >
> >Is this amount a donation, or is this what it cost to be buried by the Church.
> >
> >George Fulton

That was my understanding, too.   

--- On Sat, 3/17/12, Emilie Garcia wrote:

From: Emilie Garcia
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Assistance with terminology
To: research@nuestrosranchos.com
Date: Saturday, March 17, 2012, 9:31 PM

I always thought "de limosna" meant that the sacrament was given "out of charity"  or alms for the poor.  I think the rich people always gave donations, but the poor people couldn't. 

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA

> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 13:40:33 -0700
> From: dpdelgado@jps.net
> To: research@NuestrosRanchos.com
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Assistance with terminology
>
> George,
>
> The phrase "entierro menor" denotes a type of liturgy or rite associated with a church burial. The word "fabrica" [accent on 'a'] refers to a church building fund. The rest of the phrase refers to the money of the day. Could "se" be the word "de"?, if not then the "se" doesn't make sense syntactically. All the clergy I have met over the years resist the notion of "charging" for the 'services' they provide. The phrase you noted is more of a personal note than sentence.
>
> David Delgado
> Albany, CA
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: gpf13@aol.com
> >Sent: Mar 17, 2012 10:40 AM
> >To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.com
> >Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Assistance with terminology
> >
> >I have seen several death records from Asientos in the mid 1790s with a clause similar to "se entierro menor en fabrica de quatro pesos seis reales".
> >
> >Other records are annotated "limosna," which I assume means the person was poor, and was buried without a donation or payment to the Church.
> >
> >When I try a computer translation of this clause (such as with google), the result makes no sense.
> >
> >Is this amount a donation, or is this what it cost to be buried by the Church.
> >
> >George Fulton

David

Thanks for the reply. I took another look at the records, and the actual language varies slightly from one record to another. I may have copied the phrase incorrectly. The whole phrase most often is something like "di sepultura eccca [note: there are 3 c's in the abbreviation] con entierro menor en fabrica seis pesos seis reales". This particular record is on image 287, Asientos Defunciones 1785/98, and is the record for Bernardo Francisco Padilla.

The peso, in the 18th century, was a large silver coin comprised of 8 reales (so-called "piece of eight"; our dollar is based on this coin). Six pesos 6 reales seems to be a significant amount of money, although I have nothing on which to base the purchasing power of the peso.

As I recall, one of the things that drove Benito Juarez's reforms concerning the Church in 1857 were the expenses associated with the sacraments.

George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA

George.

The phrase in English is as follows [with Spanish in brackets]. I gave [di] ecclesiastical burial [sepultura ecclesiastica, note the mix of Latin and Spanish orthography] with a 'low burial mass' [con entierro menor]with a 'donation' of [en fabrica de] etc... The word 'fabrica' as used in this document is not modern, some dictionaries don't even list its meaning as used here. When an amount is proferred the term 'limosna' is not used because that word denotes an act of charity on the part of the parish. Church liturgy has different levels. For example there is difference between a high mass and a low mass. In some localities I have seen the use of 'con cruz baja' or 'con cruz alta' depending on whether or not the church choir, a procession, and other items were used in the service. Much of this information may not be applicable to current practices due to many liturgical changes. (I did view the film online.)

As for the changes wrought by Benito Juarez, I won't even go there. Hope this has helpful to you.

David Delgado
Albany, CA

-----Original Message-----
>From: gpf13@aol.com
>Sent: Mar 17, 2012 5:04 PM
>To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.com
>Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Terminology
>
>David
>
>Thanks for the reply. I took another look at the records, and the actual language varies slightly from one record to another. I may have copied the phrase incorrectly. The whole phrase most often is something like "di sepultura eccca [note: there are 3 c's in the abbreviation] con entierro menor en fabrica seis pesos seis reales". This particular record is on image 287, Asientos Defunciones 1785/98, and is the record for Bernardo Francisco Padilla.
>
>The peso, in the 18th century, was a large silver coin comprised of 8 reales (so-called "piece of eight"; our dollar is based on this coin). Six pesos 6 reales seems to be a significant amount of money, although I have nothing on which to base the purchasing power of the peso.
>
>As I recall, one of the things that drove Benito Juarez's reforms concerning the Church in 1857 were the expenses associated with the sacraments.
>
>George Fulton
>Pleasanton, CA

David

Thank you; I appreciate the help.

"Entierro menor" seems to be most common, even for people addressed as Don or Dona. Very rarely is there is Vigil and funeral Mass.

George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA

George,

I discussed "de limosna" with my husband, and he told me about some of the reasons for the Protestant Reformation in Europe. One was "simony", the practice of "selling tickets" out of purgatory to insure Heaven. Also, dukes could even buy the Papacy without even having been priests first. Ex-communication was also a threat held over the heads of people who opposed certain practices. People felt the Church really could condemn your soul to purgatory and brand you an infidel.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA

> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.com
> From: gpf13@aol.com
> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 17:04:34 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Terminology
>
> David
>
> Thanks for the reply. I took another look at the records, and the actual language varies slightly from one record to another. I may have copied the phrase incorrectly. The whole phrase most often is something like "di sepultura eccca [note: there are 3 c's in the abbreviation] con entierro menor en fabrica seis pesos seis reales". This particular record is on image 287, Asientos Defunciones 1785/98, and is the record for Bernardo Francisco Padilla.
>
> The peso, in the 18th century, was a large silver coin comprised of 8 reales (so-called "piece of eight"; our dollar is based on this coin). Six pesos 6 reales seems to be a significant amount of money, although I have nothing on which to base the purchasing power of the peso.
>
> As I recall, one of the things that drove Benito Juarez's reforms concerning the Church in 1857 were the expenses associated with the sacraments.
>
> George Fulton
> Pleasanton, CA

To follow up on previous comments about defunciones or death records, I have been finding in Nochistlan, film # 226940 where it says and I quote, "Causo derechos a la fabrica de 3 pesos y seis reales. It was entierro humilde or humble burial but I still don't understand what it means when it says "Causo derechos a la fabrica" Does anyone out there know?

En comentarios anteriores alguien pregunto el significado de la frase "Cause derechos a la fabrica de 3 pesos y seis reales"

Gracias,
Alicia

Alicia,

I found the following definition of the phrase on p. 438 of the Real Academia's dictionary, 1956 edition: "derechos de fabrica: rentas o derechos que se cobran en las iglesias por ciertos actos, como bautizos, entieros y otros, que sirven para repararlas o para costear los gastos del culto"... Earlier in the full page discussion you see that the word "derechos" is used in the sense of a monetary entitlement. Of course you know that "causo" means that someone paid the costs. Some locations use the phrase without using "derechos" but the meaning is the same.

I hope this is helpful to you.

David Delgado
Albany, CA

-----Original Message-----
>From: alliecar@pacbell.net
>Sent: Mar 27, 2012 3:14 AM
>To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.com
>Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Burial Terminology
>
>To follow up on previous comments about defunciones or death records, I have been finding in Nochistlan, film # 226940 where it says and I quote, "Causo derechos a la fabrica de 3 pesos y seis reales. It was entierro humilde or humble burial but I still don't understand what it means when it says "Causo derechos a la fabrica" Does anyone out there know?
>
>En comentarios anteriores alguien pregunto el significado de la frase "Cause derechos a la fabrica de 3 pesos y seis reales"
>
>Gracias,
>Alicia

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