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To Aaron & other R1b males on this forum

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By Claudia_Reynoso - Posted on 28 February 2010

Hi Aaron, you seem to know a lot about the R1b Haplogroup and have probably done a lot more research on the topic than me, so can you or any other member here help me decipher this???

[by the way, my son is also a Casillas, descendant of the Casillas's in VDG, the Tepozanes line. I have gone as far as Juan Manuel Casillas y Cabrera married to Juana Maria Valdivia, but need further links to connect to El Alarife]...

Anyway, back to my DNA dilemma. Can you tell me what/where the following DNA group originated, or give me further info/links to research? I am interested in learning more about geographical locations, because we have a perfect match in Poland, and I'm wondering how that happened...thanks!

Male Y-DNA Haplotree: R1b1b2a1b surname: Reynoso (Zacatecas line)

Claudia, when we add the DNA factor and get match's from other countries it is startling.  My mothers paternal line, Gutierrez, that I can document back to 1650 or so in Michoacan before moving to Jalisco in 1760 came back haplogroup N. I have 12 perfect matchs.. all from Finland.  The odd part to me is that the subgroup N3 is found only in Sevilla, Spain and is thought to have been brought there by the party accompanying Moctezumas/Cortes children/grandchildren who were sent back to Spain to be educated.  So, does that make part of the Aztec line from Finland originally?  It is fun to speculate but sometimes a bit of knowledge can really muddy the waters but it is a part of who we are today.

Linda in Marietta, Georgia

________________________________
From: "claudiacasillas@gmail.com"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.com
Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 12:10:25 AM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] To Aaron & other R1b males on this forum

Hi Aaron, you seem to know a lot about the R1b Haplogroup and have probably done a lot more research on the topic than me, so can you or any other member here help me decipher this???

[by the way, my son is also a Casillas, descendant of the Casillas's in VDG, the Tepozanes line. I have gone as far as Juan Manuel Casillas y Cabrera married to Juana Maria Valdivia, but need further links to connect to El Alarife]...

Anyway, back to my DNA dilemma.  Can you tell me what/where the following DNA group originated, or give me further info/links to research?  I am interested in learning more about geographical locations, because we have a perfect match in Poland, and I'm wondering how that happened...thanks!

Male Y-DNA Haplotree:  R1b1b2a1b surname: Reynoso (Zacatecas line)

It only causes confusion when it is not understood how Y-DNA and mtDNA work.
Your example is an example of a grave misunderstanding of Y-DNA and mtDNA.

On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 5:40 AM, Erlinda Castanon-Long <
longsjourney@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Claudia, when we add the DNA factor and get match's from other countries it
> is startling. My mothers paternal line, Gutierrez, that I can document back
> to 1650 or so in Michoacan before moving to Jalisco in 1760 came back
> haplogroup N. I have 12 perfect matchs.. all from Finland. The odd part to
> me is that the subgroup N3 is found only in Sevilla, Spain and is thought to
> have been brought there by the party accompanying Moctezumas/Cortes
> children/grandchildren who were sent back to Spain to be educated. So, does
> that make part of the Aztec line from Finland originally? It is fun to
> speculate but sometimes a bit of knowledge can really muddy the waters but
> it is a part of who we are today.
>
> Linda in Marietta, Georgia
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "claudiacasillas@gmail.com"
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.com
> Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 12:10:25 AM
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] To Aaron & other R1b males on this forum
>
> Hi Aaron, you seem to know a lot about the R1b Haplogroup and have probably
> done a lot more research on the topic than me, so can you or any other
> member here help me decipher this???
>
> [by the way, my son is also a Casillas, descendant of the Casillas's in
> VDG, the Tepozanes line. I have gone as far as Juan Manuel Casillas y
> Cabrera married to Juana Maria Valdivia, but need further links to connect
> to El Alarife]...
>
> Anyway, back to my DNA dilemma. Can you tell me what/where the following
> DNA group originated, or give me further info/links to research? I am
> interested in learning more about geographical locations, because we have a
> perfect match in Poland, and I'm wondering how that happened...thanks!
>
> Male Y-DNA Haplotree: R1b1b2a1b surname: Reynoso (Zacatecas line)
>

Armando

I'm always ready to learn, can you explain my error?  This was the Haplo Group N for my Mothers brother Luis Gutierrez through  the familytree site and I also submitted it to the Gary Felix site.  My MTDNA was haplogroup A, Native American.

Linda in Marietta

________________________________
From: Armando
To: research@nuestrosranchos.com
Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 9:43:06 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] genetic markers and the confusion it causes

It only causes confusion when it is not understood how Y-DNA and mtDNA work.
Your example is an example of a grave misunderstanding of Y-DNA and mtDNA.

On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 5:40 AM, Erlinda Castanon-Long <
longsjourney@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Claudia, when we add the DNA factor and get match's from other countries it
> is startling.  My mothers paternal line, Gutierrez, that I can document back
> to 1650 or so in Michoacan before moving to Jalisco in 1760 came back
> haplogroup N. I have 12 perfect matchs.. all from Finland.  The odd part to
> me is that the subgroup N3 is found only in Sevilla, Spain and is thought to
> have been brought there by the party accompanying Moctezumas/Cortes
> children/grandchildren who were sent back to Spain to be educated.  So, does
> that make part of the Aztec line from Finland originally?  It is fun to
> speculate but sometimes a bit of knowledge can really muddy the waters but
> it is a part of who we are today.
>
> Linda in Marietta, Georgia
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "claudiacasillas@gmail.com"
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.com
> Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 12:10:25 AM
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] To Aaron & other R1b males on this forum
>
> Hi Aaron, you seem to know a lot about the R1b Haplogroup and have probably
> done a lot more research on the topic than me, so can you or any other
> member here help me decipher this???
>
> [by the way, my son is also a Casillas, descendant of the Casillas's in
> VDG, the Tepozanes line. I have gone as far as Juan Manuel Casillas y
> Cabrera married to Juana Maria Valdivia, but need further links to connect
> to El Alarife]...
>
> Anyway, back to my DNA dilemma.  Can you tell me what/where the following
> DNA group originated, or give me further info/links to research?  I am
> interested in learning more about geographical locations, because we have a
> perfect match in Poland, and I'm wondering how that happened...thanks!
>
> Male Y-DNA Haplotree:  R1b1b2a1b surname: Reynoso (Zacatecas line)
>

Armando,

I confess that when my husband starts to talk about DNA I fade out. However,
I see that it is becoming a useful tool in genealogy so I'd like to get a
handle on it.
Correct me if I'm wrong. If I'm understanding correctly Y-DNA can only be
handed down from father to son. So, the assumption that Claudia made about
Aztecs having come from Finland cannot be supported by DNA since the
Moctezuma lineage she is referring to were the children of Moctezuma's
Daughter and Cortez. It would have been Cortez's Y-DNA that was passed down
through the generations since women don't carry the Y-chromosome.

Is the 12 marker test enough to really help with genealogy or should we be
looking at the more extensive testing? I'd ask my husband but ..... then
he'd realize I haven't really been listening ;)

-Angelina-

Angelina, it was not the children of Cortes/Moxtezuma  but the people who went with them.  This is what I was told by Gary Felix.. again, not Cortez/Moctezuma but their retinue..

Linda not Claudia

________________________________
From: Angelina Markle
To: research@NuestrosRanchos.com
Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 2:18:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] genetic markers and the confusion it causes

Armando,

I confess that when my husband starts to talk about DNA I fade out. However, I see that it is becoming a useful tool in genealogy so I'd like to get a handle on it.
Correct me if I'm wrong. If I'm understanding correctly Y-DNA can only be handed down from father to son. So, the assumption that Claudia made about Aztecs having come from Finland cannot be supported by DNA since the Moctezuma lineage she is referring to were the children of Moctezuma's Daughter and Cortez. It would have been Cortez's Y-DNA that was passed down through the generations since women don't carry the Y-chromosome.

Is the 12 marker test enough to really help with genealogy or should we be looking at the more extensive testing? I'd ask my husband but ..... then he'd realize I haven't really been listening ;)

-Angelina-

Hello Linda and Angelina,

I am not an expert, but there are basics to this we should all understand.
The error was in assuming that because a certain population has a higher
proportion of a marker they must have come from the larger population. A
small population in one area and a large population in another area can
exist for many reasons. The Sevilla connection, most likely, goes back much
further in time, to Sibera. I did a search and I found a post by Gary Felix
that said the following -

> when he states "we (the authors of the paper which appeared in MBE)
> believed that the single N individual carried an exceedingly rare, but
> legitimate founding lineage of
> Native Americans (from Siberia)."
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2009-01/1231403256

At another website I also found this -

"The most frequent subclade N3, arose probably in the region of present day
China, and subsequently experienced serial bottlenecks in Siberia and
secondary expansions in eastern Europe."
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n2/abs/5201748a.html

Wikipedia has this info:

Haplogroup N has a wide geographic distribution throughout Eurasia, from
Norway to China. Its highest frequency occurs among the
Finnicand
Baltic peoples of northern and eastern
Europe, the Ob-Ugric
and Northern
Samoyedic peoples of
western Siberia, and the Siberian
Turkic-speaking
Yakuts .

The spread of haplogroup N reveals traces of
bottlenecksand
founder
effects . Haplogroup N did not
spread through continuous population growth, but rather through several
founding effects. Some Siberian populations have only a few surviving Y-DNA
lineages as a mark of massive bottleneck
effect.[3]

After Haplogroup N arose in Southeast Asia, males carrying the marker moved
to the region of North China and thence to the Altai region (South Siberia).
The mutations that define the subclade N1c (old name N3) occurred either in
Siberia or in Northwest China. The age of Haplogroup N1c is approximately
14,000 years.

Haplogroup N1b is a significantly younger subclade, perhaps only 6,000 to
8,000 years old. Its first appearance is either in Eastern Europe or in
Siberia; the question of its exact origin is still not solved.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N_%28Y-DNA%29#Distribution

How many markers did you test for Linda? With a 12 marker match you only
have 50% probability of having a common ancestor in the past 14 generations
but a 95% probability within the last 62 generations, about 2,5000 years
ago. There is no telling how far back your relation to the Finnish is.
Again, as far as the group of people that ended up in Sevilla, they are most
likely to be from the Siberian to Native American line.

Time to most recent ancestor explanation -
http://blairdna.com/dna101.html#What%20Does%20it%20Mean

Claudia,
I tried to find info on yours but it still shows up as un-defined. Wikipedia
shows it to branch off of R1b1b2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29#R1b1b2

You can find the frequency of R1b1b2 at
http://www.iberianroots.com/Statistics/spain.html

On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 10:12 AM, Erlinda Castanon-Long <
longsjourney@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Armando
>
> I'm always ready to learn, can you explain my error? This was the Haplo
> Group N for my Mothers brother Luis Gutierrez through the familytree site
> and I also submitted it to the Gary Felix site. My MTDNA was haplogroup A,
> Native American.
>
> Linda in Marietta
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Armando
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.com
> Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 9:43:06 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] genetic markers and the confusion it causes
>
> It only causes confusion when it is not understood how Y-DNA and mtDNA
> work.
> Your example is an example of a grave misunderstanding of Y-DNA and mtDNA.
>
> On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 5:40 AM, Erlinda Castanon-Long <
> longsjourney@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Claudia, when we add the DNA factor and get match's from other countries
> it
> > is startling. My mothers paternal line, Gutierrez, that I can document
> back
> > to 1650 or so in Michoacan before moving to Jalisco in 1760 came back
> > haplogroup N. I have 12 perfect matchs.. all from Finland. The odd part
> to
> > me is that the subgroup N3 is found only in Sevilla, Spain and is thought
> to
> > have been brought there by the party accompanying Moctezumas/Cortes
> > children/grandchildren who were sent back to Spain to be educated. So,
> does
> > that make part of the Aztec line from Finland originally? It is fun to
> > speculate but sometimes a bit of knowledge can really muddy the waters
> but
> > it is a part of who we are today.
> >
> > Linda in Marietta, Georgia
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: "claudiacasillas@gmail.com"
> > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.com
> > Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 12:10:25 AM
> > Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] To Aaron & other R1b males on this forum
> >
> > Hi Aaron, you seem to know a lot about the R1b Haplogroup and have
> probably
> > done a lot more research on the topic than me, so can you or any other
> > member here help me decipher this???
> >
> > [by the way, my son is also a Casillas, descendant of the Casillas's in
> > VDG, the Tepozanes line. I have gone as far as Juan Manuel Casillas y
> > Cabrera married to Juana Maria Valdivia, but need further links to
> connect
> > to El Alarife]...
> >
> > Anyway, back to my DNA dilemma. Can you tell me what/where the following
> > DNA group originated, or give me further info/links to research? I am
> > interested in learning more about geographical locations, because we have
> a
> > perfect match in Poland, and I'm wondering how that happened...thanks!
> >
> > Male Y-DNA Haplotree: R1b1b2a1b surname: Reynoso (Zacatecas line)
> >
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)NuestrosRanchos.com
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.NuestrosRanchos.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)NuestrosRanchos.com
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.NuestrosRanchos.com
> >

thank you Armando.. you are thorough, I appreciate that.

I only had a 12 marker done since none of the matchs were more than 12 marker.  If someone else matches and have done a 24 marker then I will have it done.  My families love the info but don't want to pay for tests so they come from my pocket.  There are still a couple of MTDNA I would like to have done but it will have to wait.

thank you again, Linda

________________________________
From: Armando
To: research@nuestrosranchos.com
Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 2:41:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] genetic markers and the confusion it causes

Hello Linda and Angelina,

I am not an expert, but there are basics to this we should all understand.
The error was in assuming that because a certain population has a higher
proportion of a marker they must have come from the larger population. A
small population in one area and a large population in another area can
exist for many reasons. The Sevilla connection, most likely, goes back much
further in time, to Sibera. I did a search and I found a post by Gary Felix
that said the following -

> when he states "we (the authors of the paper which appeared in MBE)
> believed that the single N individual carried an exceedingly rare, but
> legitimate founding lineage of
> Native Americans (from Siberia)."
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2009-01/1231403256

At another website I also found this -

"The most frequent subclade N3, arose probably in the region of present day
China, and subsequently experienced serial bottlenecks in Siberia and
secondary expansions in eastern Europe."
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n2/abs/5201748a.html

Wikipedia has this info:

Haplogroup N has a wide geographic distribution throughout Eurasia, from
Norway to China. Its highest frequency occurs among the
Finnicand
Baltic peoples of northern and eastern
Europe, the Ob-Ugric
and Northern
Samoyedic peoples of
western Siberia, and the Siberian
Turkic-speaking
Yakuts .

The spread of haplogroup N reveals traces of
bottlenecksand
founder
effects . Haplogroup N did not
spread through continuous population growth, but rather through several
founding effects. Some Siberian populations have only a few surviving Y-DNA
lineages as a mark of massive bottleneck
effect.[3]

After Haplogroup N arose in Southeast Asia, males carrying the marker moved
to the region of North China and thence to the Altai region (South Siberia).
The mutations that define the subclade N1c (old name N3) occurred either in
Siberia or in Northwest China. The age of Haplogroup N1c is approximately
14,000 years.

Haplogroup N1b is a significantly younger subclade, perhaps only 6,000 to
8,000 years old. Its first appearance is either in Eastern Europe or in
Siberia; the question of its exact origin is still not solved.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N_%28Y-DNA%29#Distribution

How many markers did you test for Linda? With a 12 marker match you only
have 50% probability of having a common ancestor in the past 14 generations
but a 95% probability within the last 62 generations, about 2,5000 years
ago. There is no telling how far back your relation to the Finnish is.
Again, as far as the group of people that ended up in Sevilla, they are most
likely to be from the Siberian to Native American line.

Time to most recent ancestor explanation -
http://blairdna.com/dna101.html#What%20Does%20it%20Mean

Claudia,
I tried to find info on yours but it still shows up as un-defined. Wikipedia
shows it to branch off of R1b1b2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29#R1b1b2

You can find the frequency of R1b1b2 at
http://www.iberianroots.com/Statistics/spain.html

On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 10:12 AM, Erlinda Castanon-Long <
longsjourney@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Armando
>
> I'm always ready to learn, can you explain my error?  This was the Haplo
> Group N for my Mothers brother Luis Gutierrez through  the familytree site
> and I also submitted it to the Gary Felix site.  My MTDNA was haplogroup A,
> Native American.
>
> Linda in Marietta
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Armando
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.com
> Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 9:43:06 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] genetic markers and the confusion it causes
>
> It only causes confusion when it is not understood how Y-DNA and mtDNA
> work.
> Your example is an example of a grave misunderstanding of Y-DNA and mtDNA.
>
> On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 5:40 AM, Erlinda Castanon-Long <
> longsjourney@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Claudia, when we add the DNA factor and get match's from other countries
> it
> > is startling.  My mothers paternal line, Gutierrez, that I can document
> back
> > to 1650 or so in Michoacan before moving to Jalisco in 1760 came back
> > haplogroup N. I have 12 perfect matchs.. all from Finland.  The odd part
> to
> > me is that the subgroup N3 is found only in Sevilla, Spain and is thought
> to
> > have been brought there by the party accompanying Moctezumas/Cortes
> > children/grandchildren who were sent back to Spain to be educated.  So,
> does
> > that make part of the Aztec line from Finland originally?  It is fun to
> > speculate but sometimes a bit of knowledge can really muddy the waters
> but
> > it is a part of who we are today.
> >
> > Linda in Marietta, Georgia
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: "claudiacasillas@gmail.com"
> > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.com
> > Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 12:10:25 AM
> > Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] To Aaron & other R1b males on this forum
> >
> > Hi Aaron, you seem to know a lot about the R1b Haplogroup and have
> probably
> > done a lot more research on the topic than me, so can you or any other
> > member here help me decipher this???
> >
> > [by the way, my son is also a Casillas, descendant of the Casillas's in
> > VDG, the Tepozanes line. I have gone as far as Juan Manuel Casillas y
> > Cabrera married to Juana Maria Valdivia, but need further links to
> connect
> > to El Alarife]...
> >
> > Anyway, back to my DNA dilemma.  Can you tell me what/where the following
> > DNA group originated, or give me further info/links to research?  I am
> > interested in learning more about geographical locations, because we have
> a
> > perfect match in Poland, and I'm wondering how that happened...thanks!
> >
> > Male Y-DNA Haplotree:  R1b1b2a1b surname: Reynoso (Zacatecas line)
> >
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)NuestrosRanchos.com
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.NuestrosRanchos.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)NuestrosRanchos.com
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.NuestrosRanchos.com
> >

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