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Tlaxcalans

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By meef98367 - Posted on 23 January 2010

Arturo,

I finally was able to bring up that letter of 1591 from the Viceroy Luis de Velasco to the King, but it has eight pages. It is beautifully written and so legible after all those years, but I have trouble reading that Spanish. In which of the eight pages is the mention of his visit to the caravan of the Tlaxcalan families?

Thanks,

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA

I wasn't able to open up the letter. Can you help me find it?
I should be able to read it.
Stanley A Lucero

Stanley,

Yes, I couldn't open the link from Arturo's post either at first; it would say "Timed out", etc.

If you just enter the URL only as far as httP://pares.mcu.es then you can go to "Busquedas Sencillas, then type in "Virrey Luis de Velasco, Hijo" and the dates as From 1591 to 1591, it will bring up some choices. Choose Cartas Del virrey Luis de Velasco (etc), and then look for the letter that is numbered N 53 in that list and click on it. It brings up nine images of a letter that is beautifully hand-written in old Spanish. It is very legible, but I don't understand the language and some of the abbreviations.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA

----- Original Message -----
From: stanley.lucero@comcast.net
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.com
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 10:49 AM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Tlaxcalans in Zacatecas

I wasn't able to open up the letter. Can you help me find it?
I should be able to read it.
Stanley A Lucero

I can make out most of the words. Many of the words are grouped together as one word instead of separated. The words are also spelled differently from what we are used to.

See the bottom of page 4.

Los indios de Tlaxcala, quen la ... cartas ...dise que ..van

Page 5
apartandose para yr a las poblausnoes de los chichimecas, caminan ya, ya ivan 10 cho dias que sali cinco leguas de la ciudad averlos ya aminarlos y haceles prover de todo lo nessario. Van en todo lo que yo les he podido bien acomadados y parese que ya van de su gusto y ... leega Dios tenga estemedio tan aprovado y pedido de todos el sucesso que se disea y aungue siempre que la dificultal deber todos Indios y los chichimecos tan baruaros que con los unos y los otros no puede a ver entera seguridad. La que yo puedo tener es aver hecho de mi parte lo que en esto puedo, y hasta qui ay de tantos anos a esta parte asido tan de part.toso, ..mito los buenos efectos a Dios que los puede dar, que como en ...

Stanley A Lucero
Madera, California

Arturo,

Thanks for bringing up this interesting letter to us. I went through the same paragraphs that Stanley and Emily referred to, and transcribed them into modern Spanish for those who have difficulty reading old Spanish. The paragraph about the Tlaxcalans reads as follows:

Original transcription:

"Los indios de Tlaxcala, quen las ultimas cartas q' scrivii a VMd dise que estavan aprestandose para yr a las poblacioes de los chichimecas, caminan ya, y aura ocho dias que sali cinco leguas desta Ciudad averlos y a animarlos y hacerles prover de todo lo nessario. Van en todo lo que yo he podido bien acomodados y parese que ya van de su gusto y voluntad Plega Dios tenga este medio tan aprovado y pedido de todos el sucesso que se dessea y aunque siempre que da la dificultad de ser todos Indios y los chichimecos tan barvaros que con los unos y los otros no puede aver entera seguridad. La que yo puedo tener es aver hecho de mi parte lo que en esto puedo, q' hasta aqui y de tantos años a esta parte a sido tan dificultoso, Remito los buenos efectos a Dios que los puede dar, que como en cosa tan de su servicio justamente se deben sperar."

"En las Vacantes de Alcaldes del crimen desta Real Audiencia, assido necesario...." etc. (aquí pasa a otro tema)

Modern Spanish version:

"Los indios de Tlaxcala, que en las últimas cartas que escribí a Vuestra Merced dice que estaban aprestándose para ir a las poblaciones de los chichimecas, caminan ya, y hará ocho días que salí cinco leguas de esta Ciudad a verlos y a animarlos y hacerles proveer de todo lo necesario. Van, en todo lo que yo he podido, bien acomodados, y parece que ya van de su gusto y voluntad. Plega (ver nota) Dios tenga este medio tan aprobado y pedido de todos el suceso que se desea,
y aunque siempre que da dificultad de ser todos los Indios y los chichimecos tan bárbaros que con los unos y los otros no puede haber entera seguridad. La que yo puedo tener es haber hecho de mi parte lo que en esto puedo, que hasta aquí y de tantos años a esta parte ha sido tan dificultoso. Remito los buenos efectos a Dios quien los puede dar, que como en cosa tan de su servicio justamente se deben esperar.

En las Vacantes de Alcaldes del crimen de esta Real Audiencia, ha sido necesario..." etc. (at this point he changes the subject)

Nota: Me parece que "Plega Dios" significa decir una plegaria a Dios.

Bill Figueroa
Dallas, Texas

Thanks, Stanley,

I was interested because both my mother's (Marquez) and my father's (Olague) ancestors were in the Onate party. The Marquez stayed to settle, but the Olague abandoned Onate and returned to Zacatecas as soon as they could.

In all the early censuses I have from 1601 to 1693 about Paso del Norte, the Lower El Paso Valley (San Lorenzo, Senecu, Ysleta, Socorro), and the Spanish and Pueblo Indian settlements in New Mexico, I see those names you mention and others: Lucero, Baca, Brito, Cobos, Archuleta, Gongora, Isasi, Ladron de Guevara, Enriques, Tafoya, Holguin, Telles, Robledo, Madrid. I am a Madrid descendant as well as Apodaca, Candelaria, Garcia de Noriega, Lucero de Godoy, Maese, Mondragon, Perea, Saenz, Lujan, Xiron, Valencia, Granillo, Sedillo, Romero, Avalos, Varela, Duran, Pedraza, Fuentes, del Rio, Carabajal, Fresqui, Brusuelas, Tamaris, Delfin and others. My Provencios came later from Albacete in Spain.

Most of these early settlers had servants in their homes described in the early censuses as "native Mexicans" or "indian" but it doesn't list the tribe. I know my great-grandfather from Senecu was a Piro, so I knew my mother had Pueblo Indian blood, but I never thought she could also have Tlaxcalan, and so might have my father who was born in Jerez, Zacatecas. What a small world.

I have read the interesting articles about the Tlaxcalans by John Schmal and Marc Simmons; those are online.

Our moderator Joseph Puentes also has another online website similar to Nuestros Ranchos that is for the descendants of those who settled Nuevo Mexico from Juarez to Northern New Mexico. It is called Ciudad Juarez at ciudad_juarez@yahoogroups.com. Unfortunately, it hasn't garnered the activity that Ranchos has.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA

----- Original Message -----
From: stanley.lucero@comcast.net
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.com
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 9:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Tlaxcalans in Zacatecas

I can make out most of the words. Many of the words are grouped together as one word instead of separated. The words are also spelled differently from what we are used to.

See the bottom of page 4.

Los indios de Tlaxcala, quen la ... cartas ...dise que ..van

Page 5
apartandose para yr a las poblausnoes de los chichimecas, caminan ya, ya ivan 10 cho dias que sali cinco leguas de la ciudad averlos ya aminarlos y haceles prover de todo lo nessario. Van en todo lo que yo les he podido bien acomadados y parese que ya van de su gusto y ... leega Dios tenga estemedio tan aprovado y pedido de todos el sucesso que se disea y aungue siempre que la dificultal deber todos Indios y los chichimecos tan baruaros que con los unos y los otros no puede a ver entera seguridad. La que yo puedo tener es aver hecho de mi parte lo que en esto puedo, y hasta qui ay de tantos anos a esta parte asido tan de part.toso, ..mito los buenos efectos a Dios que los puede dar, que como en ...

Stanley A Lucero
Madera, California

Thank you so much, Bill. Now we can really enjoy that letter. I am going to try and print it out and keep it with your translations.

It is interesting to me that the Chicimecas, who I thought the mestizos in Zacatecas like my father were descended from, are described as "barbaros". That is the term I find in records of my Christianized Piro/Manso/Tiwa ancestors from Paso del Norte and other mission villages to describe the Apaches who raided and massacred them from time to time until the US Army captured their last chiefs and brought them under control in 1886.

I read that the Pueblo tribes are a Uto-Aztecan people, and I can see that because they were found by Onate to already be wearing clothes and settled in adobe pueblos with stone kivas that reminded me somewhat of way the pyramids in Mexico were constructed. The Apaches had never made pottery, or farmed or built adobe pueblos or stone kivas. I was told that the Tewa Pueblo at Taos has been continually occupied for over 1000 years, and before that there were similar dwellings in some caves or cliffs.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Figueroa
To: research@NuestrosRanchos.com
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 10:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Tlaxcalans in Zacatecas

Arturo,

Thanks for bringing up this interesting letter to us. I went through the same paragraphs that Stanley and Emily referred to, and transcribed them into modern Spanish for those who have difficulty reading old Spanish. The paragraph about the Tlaxcalans reads as follows:

Original transcription:

"Los indios de Tlaxcala, quen las ultimas cartas q' scrivii a VMd dise que estavan aprestandose para yr a las poblacioes de los chichimecas, caminan ya, y aura ocho dias que sali cinco leguas desta Ciudad averlos y a animarlos y hacerles prover de todo lo nessario. Van en todo lo que yo he podido bien acomodados y parese que ya van de su gusto y voluntad Plega Dios tenga este medio tan aprovado y pedido de todos el sucesso que se dessea y aunque siempre que da la dificultad de ser todos Indios y los chichimecos tan barvaros que con los unos y los otros no puede aver entera seguridad. La que yo puedo tener es aver hecho de mi parte lo que en esto puedo, q' hasta aqui y de tantos años a esta parte a sido tan dificultoso, Remito los buenos efectos a Dios que los puede dar, que como en cosa tan de su servicio justamente se deben sperar."

"En las Vacantes de Alcaldes del crimen desta Real Audiencia, assido necesario...." etc. (aquí pasa a otro tema)

Modern Spanish version:

"Los indios de Tlaxcala, que en las últimas cartas que escribí a Vuestra Merced dice que estaban aprestándose para ir a las poblaciones de los chichimecas, caminan ya, y hará ocho días que salí cinco leguas de esta Ciudad a verlos y a animarlos y hacerles proveer de todo lo necesario. Van, en todo lo que yo he podido, bien acomodados, y parece que ya van de su gusto y voluntad. Plega (ver nota) Dios tenga este medio tan aprobado y pedido de todos el suceso que se desea,
y aunque siempre que da dificultad de ser todos los Indios y los chichimecos tan bárbaros que con los unos y los otros no puede haber entera seguridad. La que yo puedo tener es haber hecho de mi parte lo que en esto puedo, que hasta aquí y de tantos años a esta parte ha sido tan dificultoso. Remito los buenos efectos a Dios quien los puede dar, que como en cosa tan de su servicio justamente se deben esperar.

En las Vacantes de Alcaldes del crimen de esta Real Audiencia, ha sido necesario..." etc. (at this point he changes the subject)

Nota: Me parece que "Plega Dios" significa decir una plegaria a Dios.

Bill Figueroa
Dallas, Texas

I invite you to visit my website at www.lucerito.net. Click on the Genealogy tab and then on the Tlaxcalan link.

I wrote a short article entitled "Tlaxcalans in New Mexico" that was published in Nuestras Raices out of Pueblo, Colorado. Marc Simmons was one of my main sources of information.

I am continueing to search for more information about the Tlaxcalans. Some of the offshoots include the places they colonized, los matachines, Seven Caves - Seven Tribes, Tonatiuh - the Sun Stone, the 400 families, etc.

I'm also working with Gregory Schaff from Santa Fe to develop materials for the New Mexico public schools regarding their indigenous history. The materials will be offered free of charge to the schools.

What started all of this was my discovery that my ancestor, Juan de Leon Brito, was a Tlaxcalan Indian. He was the son of Juan Brito and Antonia Ursula Duran, 1st marriage to Sebastiana Madrid. 2nd marriage to Maria Granillo. I have several ancestors from San Gabriel del Yunque founded by Onate in 1598. I'm hoping that by looking for records in Zacatecas I might be able to connect to more ancestors.

My family was in the Penasco Valley in Taos County as a part of the Trampas Land Grant since 1751.

Thank you Bill for finishing decoding the 1591 letter.

Stanley A Lucero

As Lucero points out, the census was July 6, 1591 and it was taken at San Juan del Rio, Queretaro by Agustin de Hinojosa Villavicencio. There is a great history of this initial migration and the subsequent migrations of the descendants of those first 400 families further north into Texas:

http://www.ejournal.unam.mx/ehn/ehn24/EHN02401.pdf

The 1591 census of the 400 Tlaxcalan families that colonized the Gran Chichimeca appears in a book titled Documentos para la historia de San Luis Potosi and is downloadable in the Files Section at:

http://www.nuestrosranchos.com/en/node/18423

I count not open this file it gave me an error message.

-----Original Message-----
From: research-bounces@lists.NuestrosRanchos.com [mailto:research-bounces@lists.NuestrosRanchos.com] On Behalf Of arturo.ramos2@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 11:27 PM
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Tlaxcalan Census 1591

The 1591 census of the 400 Tlaxcalan families that colonized the Gran Chichimeca appears in a book titled Documentos para la historia de San Luis Potosi and is downloadable in the Files Section at:

http://www.nuestrosranchos.com/en/node/18423

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