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Surnames in the 1600s and early 1700

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By gpf13 - Posted on 24 July 2009

I have recently been looking at a lot of the matrimonial information records for Aguascalientes in the 1600s and early 1700, and I have noticed that for many people, especially for indios and mulatos, the couple's names are given as first names only, for example "Juan Diego" and "Maria Magdalena" with no family names for them or their parents. In other records, the data might be something like "Juan Diego hijo legitimo de Marcos Hernandes y Ana Maria"; in this situation can one assume than "Juan Diego" is actually "Juan Diego Hernandes?" However, I've also seen many cases where the information might be something like "Antonio de Silva hijo legitimo de Juan Marcos y Maria de Silva," which would suggest that this assumption may not be correct. A situation like "Juan de Silva hijo legitimo de Antonio de Silva y Maria Ynes," is also common.

There are numerous cases where the name is Juana de la Cruz or Maria de la Cruz. Is "de la Cruz" considered a family name or part of the first name? There also also other names such as de los Reyes, de la Trinidad, and so on.

I realize that Spanish and Mexican naming practices are complex, and the "rules" are often not followed, but can anyone shed some light on the practices in this time period.

George
Pleasanton, CA

When is St. Christopher's saint day? My middle name is Christina, and since I was born on April 13 (in the 1930s), and it was near Easter, so I thought I was named for Christ. Every few decades my birthday falls on Easter.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: gandalf3.1@netzero.com
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.com
Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 1:01 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Saint \ Saint's day Names

My father was born on Jan.6th, 1934. His baptismal records show his name as "Jose Reyes" which was latter changed. My uncle Santiago is the only one who kept his "saint" name. I also have a saint name, my middle name is "Christopher"...poor Saint Christopher is no longer recoginzed as a saint, but I love him anyway...

Jorge,

Margarita Sánchez, segunda esposa de Francisco Tiscareño (hijo natural del
Capt. Juan Tiscareño Esparza) también fue conocida como Margarita Ramírez.
Era hija de Bernabé Sánchez y Magdalena Ramírez, vecinos de Teocaltiche. Se
casaron en la iglesia parroquial de Aguascalientes el 25 de febrero de 1690.
La primera hija de este matrimonio se llamó Margarita Tiscareño, quien fue
bautizada el 2 de agosto de 1696 en la Parroquia de la Asunción de
Aguascalientes. Todos eran mestizos.

No sé quien era Margarita Márquez Sosa. Talvez pudieras orientarme para
verificar ese dato.

Bill Figueroa

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez"
To: "Nuestros Ranchos"
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Surnames in the 1600s and early 1700

Hola Bill, gracias por mencionarme que en el libro de José Luis Vásquez y
Rodríguez de Frías está el censo de Nochistlán.

Ahora quisiera saber si la Margarita Sánchez de la que hablan es la misma
Margarita Márquez Sosa que yo tengo como esposa de Francisco Tiscareño de
Molina.

Saludos.
Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.

Tengo el matrimonio de Francisco Tiscareño de Molina con Margarita Márquez Sosa, los cuales tuvieron varios hijos entre ellos Felipe en 1701 y Teresa en 1720, pero entre éstas fechas aparecen mas hijos, pero de Margarita Sánchez, lo cual me hizo pensar que era la misma persona.

Ahora que mencionas que Margarita Sánchez es hija de Bernabé Sánchez y Magdalena Ramírez, busqué en el IGI y aparecen varios hijos de éste matrimonio con el apellido Sánchez de Sosa, por lo que es mas posible que sea la misma Margarita de la que hablamos, bautizada el 22 de julio de 1674 en Teocaltiche con el nombre de Magdalena Sánchez de Sosa. En su acta de defunción solo aparece como Margarita de Sosa, el día 27 de agosto de 1724.

Saludos.
Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.

_________________________________________________________________
Feliz aniversario Messenger!
www.aniversariomessenger.com.mx

Bill,
A Tiscareno line that I have not been able to connect (perhaps until now) to Luis Tiscareno de Molina is the one of Joseph Tiscareno married to Maria Garcia (have not been able to find their wedding information). This couple had at least 5 children, Juan (christened 24 Oct 1715), Juan Antonio (4 Aug 1717), Antonio Alejandro (10 Oct 1724), Vicente (my direct ancestor, born about 1725) and Francisco Antonio (3 agosto 1728). These children were described as indio, mestizo, lobo, coyote, and is the only of my Tiscareno lines that is not Spanish. I wonder if this Joseph is the son of Francisco Tiscareno and Maria de Huerta. The timeline suggest it could be. What do you think?

Jaime Alvarado

Thanks Bill, I didnt realize I had this Francisco in my database, I just was never able to connect him to the vast Tiscareno family. -Daniel

_________________________________________________________________

Hola Jorge Luis, pienso que son la misma mujer. Tambien hize una busqueda en IGI, sabes porque sale Marquez Sosa? Puedes decirme en cual lugar murio Margarita?
-Daniel Cmaino

_________________________________________________________________

Jaime,

Joseph Tiscareño (who married María García) could indeed be the son of
Francisco Tiscareño and María de Huerta. Joseph Tiscareño de Huerta,
mestizo, married Juana de Chávez 04 May 1704 according to an IGI Record in
Family Search. I have not looked for the actual record, but maybe you can
find it. Joseph Tiscareño and Juana de Chávez baptized six children in
Aguascalientes:

1. Francisco bapt. 16 Feb 1705
2. Blas bapt. 16 Feb 1707
3. Rosa María bapt. 18 Mar 1708
4. Lorenza Gertrudis bapt. 31 Aug 1710
5. Ignacio bapt. 16 Feb 1713
6. María bapt. 11 Nov 1714

Juana de Chávez died 10 Nov 1714, the day before her daughter María was
baptized. Joseph Tiscareño, a widower at 33 years of age, probably
remarried. I don't have time to look for his marriage record/marriage
information tonight, but I'm willing to bet he married María García sometime
between 10 Nov 1714 and Feb 1715. The timeline fits perfectly with the 5
children born between 1715 and 1728.

Let me know what you find out.

Bill Figueroa

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jaime R. Alvarado"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Surnames in the 1600s and early 1700

Bill,
A Tiscareno line that I have not been able to connect (perhaps until now) to
Luis Tiscareno de Molina is the one of Joseph Tiscareno married to Maria
Garcia (have not been able to find their wedding information). This couple
had at least 5 children, Juan (christened 24 Oct 1715), Juan Antonio (4 Aug
1717), Antonio Alejandro (10 Oct 1724), Vicente (my direct ancestor, born
about 1725) and Francisco Antonio (3 agosto 1728). These children were
described as indio, mestizo, lobo, coyote, and is the only of my Tiscareno
lines that is not Spanish. I wonder if this Joseph is the son of Francisco
Tiscareno and Maria de Huerta. The timeline suggest it could be. What do you
think?

Jaime Alvarado

Hi Jaime and Bill, take a look at this, something I found interesting. Francisco Tiscareño de Molina, illigitmate child of Captain Juan. was mestizo, who married a mestiza Maria Huerta they had a Juan (1687). Juan was also a mestizo. Juan married a relative of mine, Juana Maria de Chaves y Fragoso in 1713 she was espanola. They had Maria Gertrudis Tiscareno de Molina, I think Ive seen her at least once use Chaves Fragoso. Maria Gertrudis was castizo (3/4 white and 1/4 amerindian). She married Vicente de Montoya another Spaniard. Their children were español. This Tiscareño branch of the illigitimate branch that started Mestizo ended up Spanish. Im always amazed at this type of stuff. Its probably the influence Francisco had around him and his father. Thought I might share this. -Daniel Camino

Hi Bill, I have worked on the Chaves Fragoso family, I descend from them. There were two sisters Juana and Juana Maria (usually used Maria). They both married a Tiscareno brothers, JOsé Tiscareno (Jaime's José) and Juan Tiscareno. Juana Maria is daughter of Francisco Chaves Fragoso and Mariana (Marina) de Sotomayor. Its rather strange My Antonio Chaves y Fragoso married all the way in San Luis Potosi and settled in Aguas, he was son of Alejandro Chaves Fragoso, son of Diego Chaves y Fragoso, son of Pedro Chaves y Fragoso son of the patriarch and matriarch, Leonardo Fragoso and Ana de Chaves. They owned much land in Teocaltiche. -Daniel I hope this helps, Jaime!

_________________________________________________________________

Juana Chaves Fragoso was baptized 9 April 1685 in Aguas. -Daniel

_________________________________________________________________

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