You are hereForums / Genealogy Research / Acquiring a new language

Acquiring a new language

warning: Creating default object from empty value in /home/lafamilia/nuestrosranchos.com/sites/all/modules/mailhandler/mailhandler.module on line 123.

By Patricia Burton - Posted on 12 January 2009

Monday, January 12, 2009

Dear Leticia--

I was hoping you were from somewhere in Jalisco because I get to vacation there from time to time and I do have some interesting genealogy and Hispanic history books to show to whomever is interested.

I was born in Victoria, British Columbia, which is located on an island on the western side of Canada. I left for the USA when I was 2 and a half. Thanks for complimenting my Spanish but I feel I still have so much more to learn.

My grandfather could speak 6 languages because he came from Eastern Europe. Unfortunately, when I took French it was not taught so I did not catch on. The books were late in arriving at my new school and all we had was the French speaking teacher and the language lab with microphones and recorded lessons. Oh well, maybe in the next life I will be given another chance.

Sincerely,
Patricia Burton

--- On Mon, 1/12/09, leticia reynoso wrote:

> From: leticia reynoso
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Mucho Gusto...
> To: "s s"
> Date: Monday, January 12, 2009, 9:57 AM
> Dear Patricia, of course I'm understand english but my
> spoken and written are not terrific..you write very well in
> spanish ,Which part of Canada did you born? because for me
> is easier to speak and write in french. I'm fom Mexico
> city...Nice to ciber-meet you, it's a pleasure to can
> help us each other. Leticia Reynoso
> _________________________________________________________________
> Encuentra lo último de tus contactos en la parte de
> "novedades" de Messenger
> http://download.live.com/messenger

 Hi Laura,
I'm not at all familiar with Otomi, but I also thought it might be an indigenous language. However, I then wondered why the baptismal entries labeled as the espanoles would be in any other language than Spanish.  There were several different priests that performed these baptisms and all the entries, in different handwriting, are in this language.  Was this an order of priests from the same region of Spain that spoke another language?  I'm intrigued and would love to know...What is this language?! 
Thanks again,  Alice

--- On Tue, 6/19/12, mayangrl@sonic.net wrote:

From: mayangrl@sonic.net
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Language
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.com
Date: Tuesday, June 19, 2012, 5:42 AM

I'm guessing Otomi.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otomi_people

Laura Gonzalez

Hello Alice,

All languages spoken in Spain, other than Euskara (the Basque language),
are Latin based such as Castellano, Catalá, and Gallego . The language in
the records you are inquiring about is not Euskara nor is it a Latin based
language. It is without a doubt an indigenous language.

Regards,
Armando

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 2:24 AM, Alice Blake wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Laura,
> I'm not at all familiar with Otomi, but I also thought it might be an
> indigenous language. However, I then wondered why the baptismal entries
> labeled as the espanoles would be in any other language than
> Spanish. There were several different priests that performed these
> baptisms and all the entries, in different handwriting, are in this
> language. Was this an order of priests from the same region of Spain that
> spoke another language? I'm intrigued and would love to know...What is
> this language?!
> Thanks again, Alice
>
> --- On Tue, 6/19/12, mayangrl@sonic.net wrote:
>
>
> From: mayangrl@sonic.net
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Language
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.com
> Date: Tuesday, June 19, 2012, 5:42 AM
>
>
> I'm guessing Otomi. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otomi_people
>
> Laura Gonzalez

Thanks so much, Armando. 
I love a good challenge!  Which is probably why my first graduate work was in Maya Tepeu vases.  Since the mesoamerican indigenous languages usually didn't have a written form, did the priests or scribes write it out phonetically?  There appeared to be a definite syntax, which further indicates an accepted system among the Espanoles as to how to write it out phonetically.  I'm still a bit confused as to why would they use a written indigenous language to record entries in the Espanoles volume, especially when you consider the indigenous were not literate at the time.  Coming across these little  enigmas and trying to solve them make genealogy a worthy challenge and makes researching so interesting!             Thanks again,  Alice   

--- On Tue, 6/19/12, Armando wrote:

From: Armando
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Language
To: research@nuestrosranchos.com
Date: Tuesday, June 19, 2012, 8:51 PM

Hello Alice,

All languages spoken in Spain, other than Euskara (the Basque language),
are Latin based such as Castellano, Catalá, and Gallego . The language in
the records you are inquiring about is not Euskara nor is it a Latin based
language. It is without a doubt an indigenous language.

Regards,
Armando

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 2:24 AM, Alice Blake wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  Hi Laura,
> I'm not at all familiar with Otomi, but I also thought it might be an
> indigenous language. However, I then wondered why the baptismal entries
> labeled as the espanoles would be in any other language than
> Spanish.  There were several different priests that performed these
> baptisms and all the entries, in different handwriting, are in this
> language.  Was this an order of priests from the same region of Spain that
> spoke another language?  I'm intrigued and would love to know...What is
> this language?!
> Thanks again,  Alice
>
> --- On Tue, 6/19/12, mayangrl@sonic.net wrote:
>
>
> From: mayangrl@sonic.net
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Language
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.com
> Date: Tuesday, June 19, 2012, 5:42 AM
>
>
> I'm guessing Otomi.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otomi_people
>
> Laura Gonzalez

Denise Fastrup

Hi Alice

I am reading a book titled Soldiers, Indians, and Silver (1952) which describes the settlement of Nuevo Galicia, an area that included Guadalajara, Zacatecas, San Luis Potosi, and reached up to Saltillo. In this book the author, Phillip Wayne Powell, describes how christianized indians from central mexico (mexicas, tlaxcalans, and otomi) were encouraged to move up into these areas in an attempt to pacify the rebellious and warlike tribes of the Gran Chichimeca,who inhabited areas where the Spanish were interested in mining for silver.

These indians were granted special privileges such as the right to ride a horse, use a Spanish sword, and be free of tribute for a number of years, in addition to being granted land. Some of them who were already acknowledged as caciques where they originally came from, were also referred to in historical documents with the title "Don". So it is understandable that in a settlement where the overwhelming majority of residents were Otomi who still used their own language, the records would be written in Otomi.In a previous post, I cited an article which documented the switching of ethnic identities - the same person being referred to as Spanish in one document and Indian in another. I have learned that "Don" does not necessarily mean "Spanish" - and Spanish can (exception more than the rule) mean hispanized rather than strictly genetically Spanish.

Regards,
Denise

Hi Denise,
Sounds right.  Those indians that assimilated were granted privileges.
Could it also explain defunciones I've read through in 17th and 18th century Nuevo Leon, where entire settlements were wiped out by "los indios barbaros".  In the listing of the dead, the entire family was named, servants named, slaves named, and some would include a name with indio of a different group following it.   Thanks so much.
Alice 

--- On Thu, 6/21/12, hernandez.fastrup@gmail.com wrote:

From: hernandez.fastrup@gmail.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] acquiring a new language
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.com
Date: Thursday, June 21, 2012, 8:39 PM

Denise Fastrup

Hi Alice

I am reading a book titled Soldiers, Indians, and Silver (1952 which describes the settlement of Nuevo Galicia, an area that included Guadalajara, Zacatecas, San Luis Potosi, and reached up to Saltillo. In this book the author, Phillip Wayne Powell, describes how christianized indians from central mexico (mexicas, tlaxcalans, and otomi) were encouraged to move up into these areas in an attempt to pacify the rebellious and warlike tribes of the Gran Chichimeca,who inhabited areas where the Spanish were interested in mining for silver.
These indians were granted special privileges such as the right to ride a horse, use a Spanish sword, and be free of tribute for a number of years, in addition to being granted land. Some of them who were already acknowledged as caciques where they originally came from, were also referred to in historical documents with the title "Don". So it is understandable that in a settlement where the overwhelming majority of residents were Otomi who still used their own language, the records would be written in Otomi.In a previous post, I cited an article which documented the switching of ethnic identities - the same person being referred to as Spanish in one document and Indian in another. I have learned that "Don" does not necessarily mean "Spanish" - and Spanish can (exception more than the rule) mean hispanized rather than strictly genetically Spanish.

Regards,
Denise

Denise Fastrup

Hi Alice

Unfortunately I dont know much about the history of Nuevo Leon, - though it is on my list of things to do. I have an ancestor (Raphael Romo) who moved from AGS to Nadadores in or before 1816 , and I would like to know why. Right now, with the book Soldiers, Indian, and Silver, I am in the mid to late 1500s. If I happen to come across anything relevant for Nuevo Leon, I will let you know.

THe author of "Soldiers..." describes how Spanish soldiers sent to pacify the Chichimeca tribes made things worse by going in and picking fights in order to be able to take the prisoners of war and then sell them as slaves. Otherwise it was not allowed to use indians as slaves. Some priests complained of the practice and rightly pointed out that the only way to stop it was to not allow Indians to be sold as slaves under any circumstances. However, it was difficult to end the practice because the wages for the soldiers were very low, making it difficult for them to even maintain the necessary arms for defence. But the consequence was that Indian groups who had been pacified changed heart and attacked the Spanish in retaliation. It(the violence) became a vicious cycle.

It is a very interesting book, especially in light of Mexico's more recent history, or at least the situation along the border to the US.

With regard to the use of Otomi, it would be interesting to note when the books began to be written in Spanish.

Regards
Denise

Hi Alice , My name is Welester G. Alvarado and I am currently living in Monterrey, Mexico . If I can help in reference to people in the state of Nuevo Leon let me know and I will try to help you anyway that I can . Contact me through my regular e-mail direction hombrepi@hotmail.com . This way we dont have to tie up the NR e-mails up . Take care,Welester P.S. the name Romo is very well known here

>

>
> Hi Alice
>
> Unfortunately I dont know much about the history of Nuevo Leon, - though it is on my list of things to do. I have an ancestor (Raphael Romo) who moved from AGS to Nadadores in or before 1816 , and I would like to know why. Right now, with the book Soldiers, Indian, and Silver, I am in the mid to late 1500s. If I happen to come across anything relevant for Nuevo Leon, I will let you know.
>
> THe author of "Soldiers..." describes how Spanish soldiers sent to pacify the Chichimeca tribes made things worse by going in and picking fights in order to be able to take the prisoners of war and then sell them as slaves. Otherwise it was not allowed to use indians as slaves. Some priests complained of the practice and rightly pointed out that the only way to stop it was to not allow Indians to be sold as slaves under any circumstances. However, it was difficult to end the practice because the wages for the soldiers were very low, making it difficult for them to even maintain the necessary arms for defence. But the consequence was that Indian groups who had been pacified changed heart and attacked the Spanish in retaliation. It(the violence) became a vicious cycle.
>
> It is a very interesting book, especially in light of Mexico's more recent history, or at least the situation along the border to the US.
>
> With regard to the use of Otomi, it would be interesting to note when the books began to be written in Spanish.
>
> Regards
> Denise

Hello Denise,
The Huichapan, Hidalgo church book that I'm researching switches over to Spanish in 1633. 

--- On Fri, 6/22/12, hernandez.fastrup@gmail.com wrote:

From: hernandez.fastrup@gmail.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] acquiring a new language
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.com
Date: Friday, June 22, 2012, 7:12 PM

Denise Fastrup

Hi Alice

Unfortunately I dont know much about the history of Nuevo Leon, - though it is on my list of things to do. I have an ancestor (Raphael Romo) who moved from AGS to Nadadores in or before 1816 , and I would like to know why. Right now, with the book  Soldiers, Indian, and Silver, I am in the mid to late 1500s. If I happen to come across anything relevant for Nuevo Leon, I will let you know.

THe author of "Soldiers..." describes how Spanish soldiers sent to pacify the Chichimeca tribes made things worse by going in and picking fights in order to be able to take the prisoners of war and then sell them as slaves. Otherwise it was not allowed to use indians as slaves. Some priests complained of the practice and rightly pointed out that the only way to stop it was to not allow Indians to be sold as slaves under any circumstances. However, it was difficult to end the practice because the wages for the soldiers were very low, making it difficult for them to even maintain the necessary arms for defence. But the consequence was that Indian groups who had been pacified changed heart and attacked the Spanish in retaliation. It(the violence) became a vicious cycle.
It is a very interesting book, especially in light of Mexico's more recent history, or at least the situation along the border to the US.
With regard to the use of Otomi, it would be interesting to note when the books began to be written in Spanish.
Regards
Denise -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List

To post, send email to:
research(at)NuestrosRanchos.com

To change your subscription, log on to:
http://www.NuestrosRanchos.com

Hi Alice

Here is a quote from Powells "Soldiers, Indians and Silver" (1952:201)

"The Conde de Monterrey tried to speed up religious attention to the Chichimeca problem by proposing the use of several of the most important Chichimeca tongues as lingua francas, so that the friars would not have so much difficulty in communication with their proposed converts. Specifically, he recommended that the Pegua, Guachichil, and Pame tongues be used, for they were the most widely known. But he also insisted that the churchmen would have to exercise greater diligence than had been customary in learning the languages of the Chichimeca tribes...."

Elsewhere (p. 196), Powell describes the priveleges requested by the Tlaxcalans who were recruited to settle in Nueva Galicia. The following (among others) were granted:

"They are not to be compelled to settle with the Spaniards, but will be allowed to settle apart from them and have their own distinct districts (barrios). No Spaniard can take or buy any solar within the Tlaxcalan districts.
The Tlaxcalans are to be at all times settled apart from the Chichimecas, and this distinction is to apply to all of their lots, pastures, wooded lands, rivers, salt beds, mills and fishing rights."

I would think that maintaining an ethnically homogenous community would have promoted the continued use of their native language...

Good luck finding out the language of the church books you are digging into!

Regards,
Denise

Hello Denise,
Interesting stuff for sure.  It would be intriguing to find out who, when, and how was the oral language translated into a uniform and accepted written version.   Thanks again.
Alice

--- On Sun, 6/24/12, hernandez.fastrup@gmail.com wrote:

From: hernandez.fastrup@gmail.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] acquiring a new language
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.com
Date: Sunday, June 24, 2012, 6:57 PM

Hi Alice

Here is a quote from Powells "Soldiers, Indians and Silver" (1952:201)

"The Conde de Monterrey tried to speed up religious attention to the Chichimeca problem by proposing the use of several of the most important Chichimeca tongues as lingua francas, so that the friars would not have so much difficulty in communication with their proposed converts. Specifically, he recommended that the Pegua, Guachichil, and Pame tongues be used, for they were the most widely known. But he also insisted that the churchmen would have to exercise greater diligence than had been customary in learning the languages of the Chichimeca tribes...."

Elsewhere (p. 196), Powell describes the priveleges requested by the Tlaxcalans who were recruited to settle in Nueva Galicia. The following (among others) were granted:

"They are not to be compelled to settle with the Spaniards, but will be allowed to settle apart from them and have their own distinct districts (barrios). No Spaniard can take or buy any solar within the Tlaxcalan districts.
The Tlaxcalans are to be at all times settled apart from the Chichimecas, and this distinction is to apply to all of their lots, pastures, wooded lands, rivers, salt beds, mills and fishing rights."

I would think that maintaining an ethnically homogenous community would have promoted the continued use of their native language...

Good luck finding out the language of the church books you are digging into!

Regards,
Denise

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

Navigation

Who's online

There are currently 1 user and 14 guests online.

Online users

  • arturoramos

Languages